Stock or Broth?

I was watching Alton Brown do a piece on sauces. He was saying that pan sauces should be made with broth (which was made from meat) instead of stock, which is made from bones.

Any comments?

Richard

On that definition I usually make stock, although sometimes I get meaty bones and roast them first, so perhaps my resulting brew is either a 'brock' or a 'stoth'.

Stocks and broths were discussed in a French Onion Soup thread when I asked what was the difference between a stock and a broth.
Someone said they were as guilty as many of sloppily interchanging the terms. Chef Carey piped in and said, "there is a *big* difference between stock and broth," but he didn't elaborate.

Cheers,
Sue

You guys got me curious so I poked around and found this on the net:

The basic differences between a broth and a stock lies in its "properties". For example, a chicken broth will react differently when deglazing a sauté pan than a chicken stock. The reason for this is that the chicken stock will contain more gelée than chicken broth and will bind up the pan drippings into a pan sauce as the stock is reduced, replacing the alternative of cream or butter to aid in this process. The type of chicken parts used in the pot and the amount of extraction of gelée depends on the length of reduction. These are the key factors to consider in determining whether you are making chicken stock or chicken broth. Let us take a moment and review these key factors in chicken broth and chicken stock.

Chicken broth is usually made with chicken meat and chicken parts, with a high flesh to bone ratio. Whole chicken or assorted parts can be used. Fryers and roasters, both readily available at your local supermarket, do not produce satisfactory results. Stewing hens produce the best broth and are often available in the poultry section in your market. If you cannot find them do not hesitate to ring for assistance - the poultry manager will usually order them for you. For the more adventuresome, you may be able to locate someone who has a small flock of laying hens that are past their prime for egg production. Purchase one or two of them to slaughter and dress yourself. The reduction time for chicken broth at sea level is about 3 hours.

Chicken stock is made mostly of chicken parts that have a very low flesh to bone ratio. Backs, necks and breast bones produce the best stock. These boney parts are also readily available at your local supermarket, either in the case or by special order. It is also advantageous to buy whole chickens and cut them up yourself for other recipes. You can then freeze backbones, wing tips, and other parts not used in your original recipe until you are ready to make your stock. To achieve the maximum extraction of gelée from the chicken bones the reduction time at sea level is 6 hours. Water, vegetables, herbs, and salt are ingredients that are common to both stock and broth.

The whole article is here: Chicken Stock and Chicken Broth

The Culinary Institute of America has a very simple definition: a broth is meant to be consumed as is; a stock is used as an ingredient in another dish.

Regards, Bob

The Culinary Institute of America has a very simple definition: a broth is meant to be consumed as is; a stock is used as an ingredient in another dish.

Regards, Bob

That's what I've always thought of it as too. You have chicken broth for a meal, you add chicken stock to the pot when making chicken broth. Simple. I like it.

The Culinary Institute of America has a very simple definition: a broth is meant to be consumed as is; a stock is used as an ingredient in another dish.

Far be it from me to argue with the experts (at least for today), but this defintion seems to identify only one difference between "broth" and "stock." I'd never consider, e.g., using broth in a demiglace. It'd have to be stock because I wouldn't expect a broth to have the gelatin content or flavorings of a stock. Live and learn.

The Culinary Institute of America has a very simple definition: a broth is meant to be consumed as is; a stock is used as an ingredient in another dish.

Regards, Bob

Fair enough, and far be it from me to argue. But I would point out that Marcella Hazan's excellent cookbooks counsel the use of broth, rather than stock, in many dishes.

As to the original post, I suppose it would depend upon what texture I was hoping to achieve in my pan sauce. If I am going for thickness, then I would reach for stock. If I wanted a more liquid consistency, then broth would suffice.

As to the original post, I suppose it would depend upon what texture I was hoping to achieve in my pan sauce. If I am going for thickness, then I would reach for stock. If I wanted a more liquid consistency, then broth would suffice.

When it comes to meat broths and stocks, this is what I was getting at, too. To my way of thinking, both items are flavorful liquids obtained through extraction, but the duration of the reduction time and the proportions of what you're extracting are different. Whereas I'd go for the simple meaty flavors and a shorter reduction time with a broth, I'd seek the gelatin with more bones and a longer reduction time (with perhaps some added herbs and spices) in a stock. The obvious spot where this view limps is, however, with regard to vegetables. Is there a difference between a vegetarian vegetable broth and a vegetarian vegetable stock? Ain't no bones in veggies!

Hazan is very interesting on the point, John. She writes:

The broth used by Italian cooks for risotto, for soups and for braising meat and vegetables is a liquid to which meat, bones and vegetables have given their flavor, but it is not a strong, dense reduction of those flavors. It is not stock, as the term is used in French cooking. It is light bodied and soft spoken helping the dishes of which it is a part to taste better without calling attention to itself.

Italian broth is made principally with meat, together with some bones to give it a bit of substance. ...

[As an amusing side note, she teaches one to make Italian broth in a "stockpot". ]

The CIA has a basic recipe for its meat stocks which is almost identical to her Basic Homemade Meat Broth -- her potatoes and tomatoes would not appear in the CIA version.

The CIA makes its stock/broth distinction in an effort for clarity -- they consider themselves "production cooks" and want to standardize nomenclature so that cooks from different backgrounds can understand each other. You can see that trend in their definitions of sizes of dices, for example.

What Hazan calls broth, the CIA would clearly call stock; Hazan doesn't suggest that her broth would be eaten alone, but only as part of another dish.

Thanks for mentioning this point -- my son's girl friend, an excellent Italian cook, calls tomato sauce "gravy" -- that's a Providence Rhode Island usage, perhaps broader. I'll have to ask her what "stock" is in Italian.

Regards, Bob

Thanks for mentioning this point -- my son's girl friend, an excellent Italian cook, calls tomato sauce "gravy" -- that's a Providence Rhode Island usage, perhaps broader. I'll have to ask her what "stock" is in Italian.
Regards, Bob

She's not alone, Bob. That term is standard in most Italian American neighborhoods. Where I grew up, fights didn't start over "my dad is tougher than your dad" but instead, "my mother's gravy is better than your mother's."

Search on my name and gravy in the old FLDG and you should turn up an old post I put up about that, along with a recipe.

Will do, John. Thanks.

When it comes to meat broths and stocks, this is what I was getting at, too. To my way of thinking, both items are flavorful liquids obtained through extraction, but the duration of the reduction time and the proportions of what you're extracting are different. Whereas I'd go for the simple meaty flavors and a shorter reduction time with a broth, I'd seek the gelatin with more bones and a longer reduction time (with perhaps some added herbs and spices) in a stock. The obvious spot where this view limps is, however, with regard to vegetables. Is there a difference between a vegetarian vegetable broth and a vegetarian vegetable stock? Ain't no bones in veggies!

I agree totally with the above. I also believe that it is difficult to get stock from vegetables, although, when the broth is reduced enough it will get syrupy from the natural pectins (which can be enhanced with the addition of citrus), but it does not result in the same richness you get with the addition of animal parts.

I make lots of stocks -- the Boot Camp at CIA made this a major part of the learning experience, and the CIA had dozens of bags of stock in the storage areas -- they used it in many, many dishes to add flavor.

Here is their basic recipe; I sometimes add an apple to the mix to give the finished stock a bit of acidity. But, I use this only as a base for other dishes, particularly chicken vegetable soup.

You can add a different, more intense flavor, by roasting the vegetables before making the stock.

Vegetable Stock:

Yield: one gallon

Ingredients:
Onions, sliced 8 oz
Leeks, whole, diced 1 pd
Celery root, diced 8 oz
Carrots, diced 8 oz
Turnip, diced 8 oz
Parsnips, diced 1 pd
Tomatoes, chopped 1 pd
Garlic, crushed cloves 8 each
Napa Cabbage, diced 8 oz
Mushroom trim 1 pd
Fennel seeds 1 Tbsp. + 1 tsp
Thyme, dry 1 Tbsp. + 1 tsp
Oregano, dry 1 Tbsp. + 1 tsp
Bay leaf 4 each
Peppercorns, black,
Crushed 1 Tbsp. + 1 tsp
Salt to taste

The precise mix of vegetables is not crucial; you need about three pounds altogether. Do not use greens.

Method

Combine all ingredients. Add to five quarts of cold water. Bring to boil, lower to simmer, check for sufficient seasoning.

Simmer slowly, no more than 20 to 30 minutes!

Strain through a coffee filter or cheesecloth.

Chill rapidly.

The Culinary Institute of America has a very simple definition: a broth is meant to be consumed as is; a stock is used as an ingredient in another dish.

Regards, Bob

Good defenition, Bob.
I have James Peterson's 600+ page cookbook called "Spendid Soups".
In it he refers to stock ("used as an ingredient") as something used to make broth ("the liquid meant to be consumed").

Quite simple, makes good sense.

You can add a different, more intense flavor, by roasting the vegetables before making the stock.

Thx for the definition and the recipe, Bob. The above quote is absolutely for meat and vegetable stock. I avoid roasting shells and vegetables for seafood stocks (although I've seen it called for and it can be done) because most of them are turned into veloute sauces, which should retain that white or eggshell color for good presentation. Great information here folks!