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SFR: Domestic food supply issue of national security ?

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SFR: Domestic food supply issue of national security ?

by Bill Spencer » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:22 pm

%^)

From "The Packer" newspaper, 2/19 edition, column by Don Schrack, staff writer ...

"Industry must tell the story often, loudy.

For those who haven't visited, take it from a native. This California's a big place. It's loaded with natural attractions. There's the highest mountain peak in the lower 48, the biggest desert, miles and miles of seashore, the biggest and oldest trees on the planet, and, well, trust me. There's a whole bunch.

The work eureka appears on the state seal. 'I've found it !' And so have about 35,000,000 other Californians. No surprise, then, that in a just-released report, the California Department of Conservation's Farmland Mapping and Monitoring Program found that the state lost 26 acres of rich, fertile San Joaquin Valley farmland each and every day from 2002 to 2004.

Actually, we didn't lose that farmland. We just covered it with blacktop and sidewalks and driveways and houses and apartment buildings.

The disappearing farmland totaled 18,801 acres - or about 29 square miles. That chunk of dirt is half again larger than the city of Albany, the state capitol of New York.

The foregoing may generate a barely stifled yawn from the general public. In the produce industry, it should send red flags atop poles nationwide. You see, all of that disappearing farmland was in five counties: Merced, Madera, Fresno, Kings, and Tulare. The U.S. Department of Agriculture lists Fresno as the nation's No. 1 agriculture county in production value. Tulare County is a close second. The others, not far behind.

Vanishing farmland: The report was followed by word from the American Farm Bureau Federation that the average American had earned by Feb. 10 enough income to pay for his or her food supply for the entire year.

The Farm Bureau, using Department of Agriculture data, reported just 9.9% of the average American's disposable 2007 income would pay for a year's supply of food. Some perspective: The Tax Foundation says the average American will work until late April to pay all of his or her taxes.

The obvious question is how will California farmers continue to produce the lion's share of the nation's produce if their farmland is going the way of the dodo bird ?

Barry Bedwell, president of the California Grape and Tree Fruit League, Fresno, said the country's lawmakers need to maintain a domestic food supply.

'It boils down to a national security issue,' Bedwell said.

James Howard, vice president of the California Table Grape Commission, Fresno, said the country could learn a lesson from the nation's crude oil dilemma.

'What if 20 years down the road, the majority of our food was imported ?' Howard pondered.

Bedwell said the general public doesn't understand the consequences of moving our food supply offshore.

Tug of war: Of course, the variable neither side of the equation can control is a species known as the deep-pocketed developer, who offers thousands upon thousands of dollars for farmland.

More money than just about any grower could expect to earn from the land in his lifetime.

'My growers in the Stockton and Sacramento delta areas and along the coast are faced with that tug-of-war every day,' said Cherie Watte, executive director of the California Asparagus Commission, Stockton.

The bottom line, it seems, is that all branches of the produce industry tree - growers, packers, shippers, and retailers - have a vested interest in making certain California's farmers stay in business.

For many of them, it's not that easy.

John Forry, vice president of D.J. Forry Co. Inc., Novato, put it in very simple terms: 'A lot of those guys are losing their butts !'

Forry doesn't see the matter as one-sided.

He said growers must appreciate the huge costs on the retailer's profit and loss ledger.

Capital investments, freight costs, union wages to name just a few.

'I believe deeply in my growers,' Forry said, 'but retailers have hearts, too.'

No sympathy: Bedwell is less convinced that retailers are sympathetic to the plight of California farmers.

'Due to expanding sources around the globe, retailers tend to look only at demand and value,' Bedwell said.

Forry admits that farmers are last on the produce industry food chain. It doesn't have to be that way, he said.

'All of us must learn to sell the whole tree - not just the big and pretty pieces of fruit,' Forry said.

Makes sense.

The industry knows that wind-scarred navel oranges taste just as good as its unblemished relative.

It's most consumers who think produce beauty is just skin deep.

But there are signs some of those consumers are getting the message.

Howard said he was stunned to hear some of the comments at focus groups in three locations around the country last year.

He said the participants were discussing buying locally-grown produce, buying those items that were high in nutritional value. More recent research, he said, found a surprising percentage of American consumers describe themselves a food enthusiasts.

Howard said the dialogue between growers and consumers must continue and intensify. Perhaps retailers should serve as amplifiers.

That American farmers produce the best, most nutritious, safest, and, yes, the prettiest produce is a given.

Those farmers and those who sell their products, however, represent less than 1% of the American population.

So when the produce industry talks to consumers, it must talk loudly. You have a great story to tell."

That's twice this week I've been on a soapbox ... I promise to get off and stay off for a while ...

Clink !

%^)
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Napa is for auto parts, Paso is for wine !

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Re: SFR: Domestic food supply issue of national security ?

by Cynthia Wenslow » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:18 pm

That's twice this week I've been on a soapbox ... I promise to get off and stay off for a while ...


Don't get off the soapbox on my account. I find it all very interesting.
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Re: SFR: Domestic food supply issue of national security ?

by Karen/NoCA » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:05 pm

I have been very worried about this. Right here in my home town, and just 5 minutes away from our little piece of heaven, 107 acres of wonderful river bottom soil, next to small farms is going to be turned into an auto mall. The folks are fighting a losing battle. The developer promises it will be a "park like setting." Oh please! Take107 acres and turn it into 18 dealerships sitting on top of concrete and acres of buildings and cars and what do you get with our summer temps? Heat, heat and more heat, plus losing fine agriculture property all because of greed......the biggest sin we are suffering from.
The scary thing is, this mess is going to be right next to one of the biggest grammar schools in our area.

When our Farmer's Market starts up in April each year, that is where I buy my produce. The market has grown by leaps and bounds in just the past two years as more and more Redding folks find their way to really good food. The farmers are growing more each year, and getting more tired each year. What else can we do, Bill?
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Re: SFR: Domestic food supply issue of national security ?

by Eric Ifune » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:48 pm

Well,
You can tell people not to move to California.
I grew up in Southern California. So did my father. I remember farms where there is now urban/suburban sprawl. I would walk down to a local farm stall to buy corn picked just minutes before being sold. My father worked on my Grandfather's farm growing up. This was a few years before WWII. He would crate produce, truck it to downtown Los Angeles and sell it. Much of Los Angeles county used to be mainly truck farms. Orange county used to grow oranges. Palos Verdes used to be famous for its strawberries. Not anymore. People need places to live but there is a certain romance to rural living. Don't know the right answer.
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Bill Spencer

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A couple of things

by Bill Spencer » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:54 am

Karen/NoCA wrote:What else can we do, Bill?


%^)

While farmer's markets are great, they are limited or non-exsistent to most of us in the U.S. ... we just don't live in the right places ... farmer's can go up to a few hours away from their farms to sell their products but not much further ... that leaves MOST of the U.S. with no access to farmer's markets ... sooooooooo ...

First ... BUY U.S. GROWN fresh fruits and vegetables ! Sure it will in most cases cost you more but when you buy foreign produced fresh fruits and vegetables, you are taking "food" out of U.S. farmers' mouths ! Becasue of the layers and layers of industry and government regulations to virtually GUARANTEE the safety of the U.S. produced food supply and the wages we pay our workers compared to the foreign workers who work for virtually pennies an hour compared to the U.S., it costs more - plain and simple ... and it's just not a matter of BUYING U.S. grown - you have to TELL your retailer you WANT U.S. grown produce and you WON'T buy foreign produced fresh fruits and vegetables ... money talks, bullshit walks ! NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD PAYS LESS FOR THEIR FOOD THAN WE DO ! You are simply going to have to be willing to pay more than 10 cents on the dollar to feed your family IF you want the agriculture industry in the U.S. to survive ... otherwise I promise you - we WILL become dependent on foreign produced food to feed us JUST LIKE WE'RE DEPENDENT ON FOREIGN PRODUCED OIL AND GASOLINE FOR OUR ENERGY NEEDS ! And when THAT happens, you'll cry when you remember the days you were paying SO LITTLE for the food you used to eat !

Second ... GET INVOLVED IN YOUR LOCAL PLANNING AND ZONING ! It's the general public that's allowing rich developers to gobble up our farmland and turn it into car lots, houses, and shopping centers ... and re "First" above, if the farmer is making money and "not losing his butt", it will be easier for him to say no to the developer and fight his local planning and zoning agencies ... we are a fourth generation family citrus farming business and I UNFORTNATELY guarantee you there won't be a FIFTH generation ... we are first being "developed" right out of business and the kind of money I make in this "farming game" doesn't allow ME to buy much more than $100 a case grog ... "rich" farmers are a FABLE, a figment of the public's imagination ... hell - most of the general public thinks their fresh fruits and vegetables come right out of the back storage area of their grocery stores ! DON'T allow the farmland to become something else than farmland ! But you HAVE to get invloved !

Tough "medicine" but you asked ...

Clink !

%^)
"If there are no dogs in heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went !" - Anonymous

Napa is for auto parts, Paso is for wine !

Bill Spencer (Arizona Wine Lover)

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Re: A couple of things

by Mike Filigenzi » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:25 pm

Well said, Bill!

Mike
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Mike's area is a case in point

by Bill Spencer » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:48 pm

%^)

Mike lives close to one of the most prolifically perfect farming areas in California ... BUT -

Peruvian asparagus has nearly put his local asparagus farmers out of business ...

Chilean tree fruit growers have put his WONDERFUL cling and freestone peach farmers out of business ...

Imported rice has nearly put his rice farmers out of business ...

And that's just THREE of the major crops grown close to Mike ... farmers who grow other varieties of fresh fruits and vegetables there are on the ropes also ...

TERRIBLE !

Clink !

%^)
"If there are no dogs in heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went !" - Anonymous

Napa is for auto parts, Paso is for wine !

Bill Spencer (Arizona Wine Lover)

Lemon Recipes - http://www.associatedcitrus.com/recipes.html
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Re: Mike's area is a case in point

by Stuart Yaniger » Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:22 pm

Peruvian (and Mexican) has certainly competed well for the commodity growers in Mike's and my area. But there seems to be no shortage of high quality asparagus from small quality-oriented local guys. And they're undercutting the bulk stuff anyway- if I go to Larry's in Fairfield (our largest local stand), the asparagus is grown within a mile of the stand, when in season it will be superb, much better than what I'd find at Safeway, and on top of that, it will be 30-50% cheaper.

You can't escape economies of scale (that's seems to be the prime reason that agribusiness is transforming into an industrial model), so our successful local growers and food producers are adapting and finding their markets. The unsuccessful ones grow thirty acres of bland apples and can't understand why they're not raking in the big bucks.

edit: Calrose and Botan from California sell like crazy, and are prized for their quality. It's tough to find anything else, not that I'd try. Peaches? Talk to Frog Hollow, once you're through the 45 minute line. They don't seem to be hurting.
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IMHO, you're missing the point, Stuart

by Bill Spencer » Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:56 pm

%^)

Can Larry's supply 300,000,000 Americans ?

Can Calrose and Botan supply 300,000,000 Americans ?

Can Frog Hollow supply 300,000,000 Americans ?

Can you shop TODAY at a farmer's market in Chicago, Minneapolis, Detroit, Cleveland, New York, Boston, Washington D.C. - I could go on and on ...

What was one of the reason's for the start of WWII in the Pacific ? The country of Japan was blockcaded from recieving any oil and they were both freezing and starving to death ... the same thing PROBABLY couldn't happen to our food supply way off in the future but they are NOT friendly governments of countries that are supplying much of our imported food today ...

And another thing ... what could POSSIBLY happen to the cost of imported food when we, the U.S., become a net importer of food ? As we live in a supply and demand economic world, is there a possibility that foreign sellers will RAISE the cost of the food they are selling us ?

And yet one more thing ... how does the imported food get to the U.S. ? By boat in 99 percent of the cases ... what happens to the cost of the food to our children and grandchildren when oil supplies get so tight, the price skyrockets, and the cost of the oil to fuel those ships goes sky-high ?

Clink !

%^)
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Re: IMHO, you're missing the point, Stuart

by Stuart Yaniger » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 pm

I was very careful to distinguish industrial agriculture. For those of us who care about our food beyond "when does the McDonalds drive thru close?" these seem to be the golden days. Availability has never been better.

Just out of curiosity, what is the aggregate actual volume or weight of agricultural produce grown in the US? How does that compare to, say, 30 years ago? Not per capita, not broken down by item, and not acreage, just pure output.
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Re: Mike's area is a case in point

by Mike Filigenzi » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:29 pm

Bill Spencer wrote:%^)

Mike lives close to one of the most prolifically perfect farming areas in California ... BUT -

Peruvian asparagus has nearly put his local asparagus farmers out of business ...

Chilean tree fruit growers have put his WONDERFUL cling and freestone peach farmers out of business ...

Imported rice has nearly put his rice farmers out of business ...

And that's just THREE of the major crops grown close to Mike ... farmers who grow other varieties of fresh fruits and vegetables there are on the ropes also ...

TERRIBLE !

Clink !

%^)


You can't forget the local acreage in the flood plains that's been plowed under for housing. At some point, we'll pay for that not only in terms of food but in bailing out all of the uninsured people who end up under water.

From my vantage point, though, I have to agree somewhat with Stuart. The availability of high-quality locally grown produce has never been better here. I can't speak to how it is in Chicago or Oklahoma City or Boise, but it's a great time to be a foodie here. There are local items that cost more than what you get in the supermarkets (I'm thinking more of meat than produce) but as you said, our food costs are amazingly small in this country.

On a down note, I was just sitting with some co-workers on a coffee break and they were discussing how much cheaper they can get stuff at "Food For Less" than at Albertson's or Safeway. Quality and origin of what they buy did not seem to enter the picture in any form. :(

Mike
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Re: Mike's area is a case in point

by Hoke » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:16 pm

On a down note, I was just sitting with some co-workers on a coffee break and they were discussing how much cheaper they can get stuff at "Food For Less" than at Albertson's or Safeway. Quality and origin of what they buy did not seem to enter the picture in any form.


Well, yeah, there's the rub. There's always the rub.

If you don't care what you eat, or drink, then it is all about price and convenience, isn't it? Yaniger is very selective about what he puts in his mouth (well, food, I mean). I am somewhat less so (well, food, I mean). Then there's the Albertsons's set of which you speak. Also the CostCo set, where bulk replaces any other concern or value (although I have to say that much of the foodstuffs Costco does is pretty good overall).

Fact is that, like wine and most anything else, most folks really don't know or care. As far as they're concerned, it does come from the back room.
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Point on

by Bill Spencer » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:24 pm

Mike Filigenzi (Sacto) wrote:Quality and origin of what they buy did not seem to enter the picture in any form. :(

Mike


%^)

... and one of the points of "The Packer" column was that unless and until production agriculture does a better job of telling their "story", food will eventually become like oil - expensive and come mostly from someplace else other than the U.S. ...

P.S. Could not agree with you more about the quality and increasing quantity of locally grown fresh produce in season ... you just have to be lucky enough to live in the right place ...

Clink !

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Re: Mike's area is a case in point

by Stuart Yaniger » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:24 pm

Sturgeon's Rule yet again, eh?
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Don't know

by Bill Spencer » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:38 pm

Stuart Yaniger wrote:Just out of curiosity, what is the aggregate actual volume or weight of agricultural produce grown in the US? How does that compare to, say, 30 years ago? Not per capita, not broken down by item, and not acreage, just pure output.


%^)

Just remember seeing statistics somewhere (and alluded to in "The Packer" column) that domestic production is decreasing while imports are increasing exponentially ... and I'm sorry after four generations to have to admit that I can no longer compete pricewise with imported produce ... so unless things change, which they probably won't, sometime in the next decade I'll join the legion of farmers selling off their land for development and let my kids and grandkids worry about where their food is coming from, how safe it is, and whether or not they can afford it along with all the other "toys" we/this economy have come to enjoy ... in the meantime, I'll "fight the good fight" and try to rationally not become a "Chicken Little" but rather just a voice of reason and concern ...

Clink !

%^)
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Napa is for auto parts, Paso is for wine !

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Lemon Recipes - http://www.associatedcitrus.com/recipes.html
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Re: Don't know

by Hoke » Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:20 pm

A corollary/comment on what you just wrote, Bill:

I was just in Kentucky Bourbon country on business, and as we were driving around through central Kentucky someone was asking about the sources of the oak for making the oak barrels for the whisky trade (which is burgeoning right now).

Interestingly enough, our tour guide was telling us that largely because of the demise of the small holding farmer in Kentucky the farmland is disappearing. Much of the land is going over to small individual homesites, yes. Relatively little of it is going to agribusiness, because the land isn't really suited for large scale agriculture crops (and the tobacco farms are going away, many not being replaced with anything else). So the net result is that tree growth is actually experiencing significant growth. A comparison of a current survy against a survey done in 1900 shows that the quercus alba (white oak) population is significantly higher now than in 1900, with growth great enough to handle the increase in demand for barrels without any trouble.

Points out that every problem is local, and every problem is global at the same time.
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Re: SFR: Domestic food supply issue of national security ?

by Paul Winalski » Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:00 am

In a word, total and utter bullshit. Shameless scare-mongering from one of the most cosseted, protected, and subsidized industries in the nation.

I don't buy a word of it.

But at least they don't block the roads with tractors and dump manure on the steps of the capitol building like they do in France. I suppose I should be thankful for small favors.

:evil:

-Paul W.
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Wrong !

by Bill Spencer » Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:04 pm

Paul Winalski wrote:In a word, total and utter bullshit. Shameless scare-mongering from one of the most cosseted, protected, and subsidized industries in the nation.

I don't buy a word of it.


I humbly beg to differ, Paul ... the big three NON-production, NON-fresh fruit and vegetable crops ARE subsidized - wheat, corn, and soybeans ... with the exception of either disaster aid or crop insurance for weather related occurances, the FRESH FRUIT AND VEGETABLE INDUSTRY doesn't receive a goddamn penny from the government - NOT ONE ... personally, I prefer to try living on something other than just wheat, corn, and soybeans ! And FWIW, the subsidies on those crops are slowly BUT SURELY going away as agriculture is losing the war with the WTO ... believe what you want but there are 14 fifth generation Spencer's that will NOT follow my generation into the farming business ... we and they realize that unfortunately there is no future in farming ... and I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the children of my farming friends in this business who are in the same boat ...

But then again, it's not happening fast enough for YOU to have to worry about it ... sorta reminds one of all the arguments, both pro and con, about global warming ... talk it to death and don't do an efing thing about it !

Clink !

%^)
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Napa is for auto parts, Paso is for wine !

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Lemon Recipes - http://www.associatedcitrus.com/recipes.html
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Re: Wrong !

by Stuart Yaniger » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:54 pm

Had you considered repositioning yourself in the market, e.g., selling more boutique-y stuff? High-end or proprietary varieties? Yes, there's investment and risk. Just like in the businesses the rest of us are in (though we don't get government aid when weather doesn't go right or subsidized insurance or special tax breaks).

But before positioning this as a national security need, I still would recommend that you have the numbers on domestic agro output over time and that they actually show decline as your thesis supposes. That's better than bald assertion and "I think I read something like that somewhere" in convincing the open-minded.
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Re: Wrong !

by Paul Winalski » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:35 am

Bill,

I spoke out of ignorance and was lumping the fresh produce crops along with the big-industry wheat/corn/soybeans. I was unaware of the difference, and I apologize.

But I still strongly dispute that this is a national security issue. For starters, there are many independent suppliers of fresh fruit and vegetables, and the US is enough of a market, and powerful enough to avoid a blocade, that I don't see any way that supply could be cut off, even if all domestic producers were to go out of business tomorrow. And even in the case of a blocade (as occurred partially during WW I and WW II), domestic production and individual "victory gardens" can be ramped up rapidly to take up the slack on the essential produce items.

My own occupation (software engineering) is facing commoditization, consolidation, downsizing, outsourcing, etc., without any sort of governmental or social assistance. So you'll have to forgive me if I have zero sympathy when farmers face the same issues and then try to appeal for governmental intervention.

The economy is global, and we all have to live with it--both the positives and the negatives.

-Paul W. (whose former job is now being done in India)
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Let me work on that

by Bill Spencer » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:33 pm

Stuart Yaniger wrote:But before positioning this as a national security need, I still would recommend that you have the numbers on domestic agro output over time and that they actually show decline as your thesis supposes. That's better than bald assertion and "I think I read something like that somewhere" in convincing the open-minded.


%^)

Let me go to wrok on those numbers, Stuart, and get back to you ... being involved in both my own family business and with American Farm Bureau Federation at the national level, you can imagine how much "stuff" crosses my desk ... I've seen the statistics someplace but just can't lay my hands on it/them readily ...

Clink !

%^)
"If there are no dogs in heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went !" - Anonymous

Napa is for auto parts, Paso is for wine !

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Lemon Recipes - http://www.associatedcitrus.com/recipes.html
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Re: Let me work on that

by Carl Eppig » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:44 pm

We are forturnate to live and have lived in those pockets of the country/world where farmers' markets abound. The exception was Nebraska where the closest thing was guys selling cantalopes out of the back of pickup trucks (not sure whether they grew or stole them).

The only problem is what to buy the other three quarters of the year. Now that we have a new freezer that will be a big help. Otherwise we try to check quality of what we buy carefully, buying organic if it looks and feels better than inorganic. To be perfectly honast, country of origin does not factor in.
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No apology necessary, Paul

by Bill Spencer » Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:17 pm

Paul Winalski wrote:But I still strongly dispute that this is a national security issue. For starters, there are many independent suppliers of fresh fruit and vegetables, and the US is enough of a market, and powerful enough to avoid a blocade, that I don't see any way that supply could be cut off, even if all domestic producers were to go out of business tomorrow. And even in the case of a blocade (as occurred partially during WW I and WW II), domestic production and individual "victory gardens" can be ramped up rapidly to take up the slack on the essential produce items.

My own occupation (software engineering) is facing commoditization, consolidation, downsizing, outsourcing, etc., without any sort of governmental or social assistance. So you'll have to forgive me if I have zero sympathy when farmers face the same issues and then try to appeal for governmental intervention.

The economy is global, and we all have to live with it--both the positives and the negatives.

-Paul W. (whose former job is now being done in India)


%^)

I am not saying that production agriculture will completely go away ... what the columnist and I are saying is that there is an inherent danger to the safety, quantity, and price of much if not all of our food as the U.S. becomes a net importer of what we eat ... I am also not saying that there's any type of conspiracy afoot to eventually put many/most of our farmers out of business - it's just that the economies of producing our food is simply doing that all by itself ... and at some time down the road, the countries that are providing more and more of our food to us will begin to raise the prices of that food as our country's increasing demand for food and the dwindling supply of food WE produce begins to work in the marketplace ...

Here's something else ... there's a saying in the farming business - "food grows where water flows" ... here's just one example of that ... the Colorado River supplies water to seven states in the West including the most populist state in the U.S. - California ... we have been in a longterm drought that has now lasted well over a decade ... read a story in Friday's paper that these seven states are very close to having some of their water allocation cut off as there's just not enough to go around ... who do you suppose is going to get their water reduced first - farmers or city folks ? People who's main income has to do with agriculture (and we're not talking just farmers here) make up less than 1 percent of the U.S. population ... they no longer have the political power in either state legislatures or the federal legislature to "trump" the wants/needs of city folk ... part of the war we are fighting today has to do with that water ... in order to produce a crop, my trees require "x" amount of water on an annual basis ... reduce that supply and it reduces my crop ... reduce it too much and my trees eventually die ... add that to the "farmers losing their butts" argument as it relates to cheaper imports and that former farming land being converted to development so that it will NEVER be farming land again and I think you have a serious situation developing in production agriculture in this country ... is it a mater of national security ? Not now ... could it become a matter of national security ? Well that's just like the pro and con arguments about "global warming" ... I just happen to fall on the side of the argument that the trend is scary and that food COULD become another economic problem much like what the cost of imported oil has cost our economy ... do you really think the price of oil will stop at $60, $70, $80 etc. a barrel ? At some point I believe oil will rise to the point that it causes some level of economic cataclism in our country ... and I believe our food supply has begun it's journey down the same path ... as such, I believe a civil discussion of the "problem" may in the long term help stall it from happening ... so I take the chance of becoming much like the "lone voice in the wilderness" and being somewhat accused of "fearmongering" but I do it amongst people who I consider friends who have always shown a tendency toward civil discourse of many different things we have talked about on this board for years ...

Clink !

%^)
"If there are no dogs in heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went !" - Anonymous

Napa is for auto parts, Paso is for wine !

Bill Spencer (Arizona Wine Lover)

Lemon Recipes - http://www.associatedcitrus.com/recipes.html

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