Larryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

[Jenise]

So yesterday I put together another loaf; believed my starter revived enough. I decided to go back to exactly what was working for me before, meaning starter + 1/4 tsp yeast. But first I proofed the yeast--same brand, Red Star, but two different three-packs. One from a new envelope but same three pack as last week's disasters, and one from a new three pack. The former was non-reactive, so that mystery solved, I made my dough using the proofed yeast as my water component.

This morning, 18 hours later: the dough has doubled, but not tripled. I'll let it go a little longer but it seems I'm not back to where I want to be.

Maybe your beginner's luck ran out?

Assuming you're talking about the first rise, I wouldn't let it rise too much longer and overproof. Take what you have and form your loves for the second rise. I'd be tempted to knead in another bit of commercial yeast before the second rise.

Don't overproof the second rise or your loaves will go flat. When a loaf nearly doubles, do the finger test. Poke your finger into the loaf a little bit; the hole should slowly try to fill back in. If the hole remains, you've overproofed and there won't be any ovenspring. If it quickly fills in, it needs to rise some more.

One from a new envelope but same three pack as last week's disasters, and one from a new three pack. The former was non-reactive, so that mystery solved...

Need a black envelope to bury the honored dead?

[Jenise]

That's what it feels like! I'm absolutely despondent about it.

So, more yeast--done. Proof begun. Unfortunately I don't have Rapid Rise yeast--have had ZERO success finding any (and I've been looking!) and only resorted to regular yeast in desperation.

[Jenise]

One from a new envelope but same three pack as last week's disasters, and one from a new three pack. The former was non-reactive, so that mystery solved...

Need a black envelope to bury the honored dead?

Nope, they went away in the big blue truck from Sanitation Services this morning. Good riddance!

Do like I do. Find a restaurant supply store and buy a 1-lb pkg of instant yeast. Should be about $3. Put it in the freezer in its foil pkg in a ziplock, and a portion of it in a small jar on your refrigerator door for ready use. You should have viable yeast for more than two years. I use only instant yeast, so I can mix it into the flour w/o doing the proofing regimen.

[Jenise]

I'll check it out. No restaurant supply in town, though the renamed Cash & Carry might oblige. And then there's always Amazon, though I'm trying hard not to be their customer if there's a local alternative.

Plus on Amazon, a 1-lb pkg is about $8 (you can find free shipping, though), but locally it should be cheaper. I wouldn't be hung up on the brand: I've used SAF, Red Star, and Fleischmann's, and they all worked just fine. And there are other brands. It's certainly cheaper than the packets, and you won't have to worry about running out for a long time. And keeping it in the freezer keeps it fresh for a long, long time.

[Jenise]

Another dud. I'm in despair.

I wonder if maybe some local microorganism that's not up to the job has taken over your starter?

-Paul W.

Let's regroup. Does your current starter look and smell okay? If it looks wrinkly or black or red or weird and it smells bad, it's contaminated. It should smell clean and kinda boozy. But you've been feeding it, so I doubt that it's being taken over U.S. Federal Agents or other contaminants.

It could be that for whatever reason your starter is not strong. Take a spoonful of starter and a new jar with fresh flour and water (I'd just use 1 cup each) and feed it every day (throwing away half each time). After a number of days of this, the starter should be really bubbly and active, which is when you can use it or refrigerate it.

Or, if you've saved some of the powder I sent you as a backup (you need only a speck if you don't have much), you can use that if your starter is wonky (or if you just want to start from scratch).

When you're ready to bake again, let me know, and we'll figure out a schedule.

[Jenise]

Paul and Larry,

No off colors. Everything looks and smells quite normal about it. I was really happy when I got it out to use for this loaf, confident that my efforts pre-last week's camping trip had paid off. It was more sludgy than spongy as it had been at the very beginning, but it was spongy near the top. The liquid wasn't quite as boozy as I had expected it to be, but with my sinuses this wasn't conclusive or concerning. It certainly wasn't 'off'. I'd fed it before I left--the usual, discard/replace each day while it was on the counter trying to revive it. I'll return to that M.O, and advise!

[Jenise]

Okay, new starter underway.

Meanwhile, erring wholesale in the opposite direction because I like doing stupid things, I just put 1/2 c of the discard plus a WHOLE envelope traditional yeast in a bowl with 3 c flour and 1 cup water, and am leaving it overnight. I told Bob it will probably blow up the oven.

Meanwhile, erring wholesale in the opposite direction because I like doing stupid things, I just put 1/2 c of the discard plus a WHOLE envelope traditional yeast in a bowl with 3 c flour and 1 cup water, and am leaving it overnight.

Why

Whatever you do, don't mix any of that dough into the starter. The commercial yeast will take over, and it won't be San Francisco anymore.

[Jenise]

Whatever you do, don't mix any of that dough into the starter. The commercial yeast will take over, and it won't be San Francisco anymore.

I know better than that. The other will turn into a loaf of bread--maybe. Remember, I'm learning how to make bread. Ergo I need to understand the effects of too much just as much as I need to know too little and just right. Blindly following recipes just isn't my style. So these are the things I must learn, and I don't care how many failed loaves I throw out as long as it leads to developing instincts. I can't stand having them not turn out and having no idea why.

So the starter is bubbling along nicely (I left the lid just slightly ajar so it can breathe, I'm unsure if that is correct or not but it seems right to me). Meanwhile, the yeast for the bread startlingly proofed in about three minutes, and much more vigorously than the two from the other two series of dough packets, and surprise surprise the dough ball tripled in three hours. SO I punched it down, did a few folds and formed a loaf, covered it with a towel and moved it to the outside fridge for a cold, slow overnight proof. I'll bake it right away in the morning. Will let you know how it turns out.

Thinking of you, Jenise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA3hc4P3qe8

I think you've conclusively shown that those previous yeast packets were duds. Dead or nearly dead yeast spores.

-Paul W.

[Jenise]

Paul, first I must apologize. I stupidly clicked the wrong button to respond to your note, which meant I edited my answer into your note instead of answering it separately. Unfortunately, though your response re the starter and respiration vs. fermentation didn't fall on deaf ears, I'd clipped out most of it for my response thinking of course that your post was still intact. It wasn't, so sorry.

But on with the show:

Thanks for the confirmation re the starter. What I imagined, but decided I should get confirmation of. (Not that I imagined ethanol, mind you.)

Re my yeasts, I had four batches of yeast packets. One was a Rapid Rise which went into the first loaves, and all the successful ones. Then I started using non Rapid Rise because it's all that was available here. I did not pay attention to Expiration date when I purchased.

Obviously the Rapid Rise worked well, but I only had one packet left. It had probably been around for awhile. The others I bought since the Pandemic--I think. It seems likely as they were all the same brand, but different from the lone packet left of the Fleischmann's Rapid Rise which had probably been in my pantry for around two years.

The Red Stars were full 3-packet goobers, expiration dates 2016, Sep 2020 and Jan 2022. Last week's failed loaves were made with the 2016 and 2020 packets. Last night's exuberance came from the Jan 2022 packets. I read somewhere recently, don't know where, that expiration dates on yeast was pretty immaterial in a comment that went something like "they've got to put some kind of date on them, but let's face it, they're essentially immortal". Obviously not true. Even Sep 2020 is already 'old' compared to Jan 2022. I'll never buy yeast without paying attention to expiration date again.

Further to that, I looked at buying yeast in large pkgs from Amazon the other day. Most had reviews of 4 or 4.5 stars, so I chose one to read comments on, thinking vendor issues aside, wouldn't all yeast be either As Expected or Not At All? 5 stars vs. 1 star?
I was amazed how many had just 1 star and the comment "Dead yeast." So I looked at others. Similar situations. Lots and lots of people bought dead yeast, and none of it's returnable. For the most part expiration dates are not featured in the listing. I was so put off I ended up deciding not to buy.

And then yesterday, for the first time since this pandemic started, I actually found Rapid Rise yeast at a market. I bought 12 packets, so I'm good for now. And I'll use up the Jan 2022 Red Star.

No problem re the lost posting. I'll just repeat it here.

So the starter is bubbling along nicely (I left the lid just slightly ajar so it can breathe, I'm unsure if that is correct or not but it seems right to me)..

Breathing is exactly the right term. When oxygen is present, yeasts use it to metabolize starch to water and carbon dioxide (which of course is what makes the bread rise). This is called respiration and it's how humans get their energy. When oxygen isn't present, yeasts metabolize starch to carbon dioxide and ethanol. This is fermentation and it produces only about 1/20 the energy that respiration does, which is why yeasts do the latter if they can.* For bread making, you want respiration, not fermentation. Fermentation is partly responsible for that off aroma and flavor when dough has been left to rise too long--the yeasts will have used up all the oxygen introduced into the dough and will switch to fermentation.

Regarding yeast longevity, whenever living conditions aren't good yeasts form dormant spores to ride out the bad times. Compared to a lot of other fungi, yeast spores are rather fragile. Heat can kill them, and they certainly don't have an infinite shelf life. I suggest always proofing the yeast to make sure that there are still enough live spores to give you the desired rise.

What is the difference between rapid-rise vs. regular baking yeast? There are probably as many varieties of yeast out there as there are grape varieties, and they all have slightly different characteristics.

-Paul W.

* Just as a side note: our bodies do fermentation, too, but we produce lactic acid instead of ethanol. This especially happens in muscle tissue. The bloodstream delivers the lactic acid to the liver, where it's rebuilt into glucose. In anaerobic exercise such as weight lifting, muscle cells are burning glucose faster than the bloodstream can deliver oxygen, so they switch to fermentation. Buildup of lactic acid in muscle tissue is the main cause of muscle fatigue.

[Jenise]

Regarding yeast longevity, whenever living conditions aren't good yeasts form dormant spores to ride out the bad times. Compared to a lot of other fungi, yeast spores are rather fragile. Heat can kill them, and they certainly don't have an infinite shelf life. I suggest always proofing the yeast to make sure that there are still enough live spores to give you the desired rise.

Got it. Our conditions here are ideal. Year round, 60ish in my pantry. But the chain of custody up thru my purchase is another story. Re the two yeasts tested last week, the 2016 vs. the 2020, compared to the 2022 last night the 2020 wasn't in good-enough shape, it was only better than the 2016 so seemed good enough to someone like me not used to looking at them. The 2022 is my new benchmark.

What is the difference between rapid-rise vs. regular baking yeast? There are probably as many varieties of yeast out there as there are grape varieties, and they all have slightly different characteristics.

Do I understand correctly that the difference is that rapid rise is immediately usable without the 15 minute proofing delay required for standard yeast? It has certainly made an impression on me that virtually every bread recipe including the book I read cover to cover last week, Ken Forkish's Flour and Yeast, calls for Rapid Rise.

Two more questions about yeast.

1) Yeast and salt. Do they get along? A you tube video I watched on pizza dough last week had the host putting the salt on one side of her flour bowl and the yeast on the other. She cautioned viewers not to put them on top of each other as the salt would deactivate the yeast. Never mind that they're both dry and about to get mixed together in the flour. Sounded unscientific, and I'll admit it made my eyes roll.

2) How do yeast and starter get along? The 1/4 tsp of yeast I was using in addition to the 1 cup starter in my early super successful loafs didn't seem to get in the way. But I note that in today's loaf (which by the way, came out GREAT), in which instead of 1/4 tsp yeast + 1 cup starter I used 1 pkg yeast + .5 cup starter and one cup less flour , there's a huge difference in flavor. Today's loaf is super tasty, light and airy with a great crust, but not at all sourdoughish in flavor or the distinctive appearance of shiny/bubbly crust that is distinctly sourdough.

I'm coming to the conclusion that my issue in having gone from GREAT bread to one failure after another, until today that is, is that I had both a yeast problem and a starter problem. Now I've got good yeast, I can make a good loaf. And once my starter returns to good health, I'll be able to make good sourdough again. Things will only get better.

Can't tell you and Larry how much I've appreciated your guidance and cheerleading to get me thru this. Would have been totally lost without you!

Regarding yeast longevity, whenever living conditions aren't good yeasts form dormant spores to ride out the bad times. Compared to a lot of other fungi, yeast spores are rather fragile. Heat can kill them, and they certainly don't have an infinite shelf life. I suggest always proofing the yeast to make sure that there are still enough live spores to give you the desired rise.

Got it. Our conditions here are ideal. Year round, 60ish in my pantry.

When I said "living conditions aren't good", I meant for the non-spore yeast cells. Things like not enough food, too salty, too dry, too hot, too cold. All of those will trigger the yeast cells to collapse into dormant spores. Yeast cakes, dry active yeast, and rapid-rise yeast all consist of dormant yeast spores. When you provide the spores with enough moisture, warmth, and food, they wake up and become active cells again. Proofing allows this process to take place before you add the yeast to the dough. The yeast in a starter is already in active form.

What is the difference between rapid-rise vs. regular baking yeast? There are probably as many varieties of yeast out there as there are grape varieties, and they all have slightly different characteristics.

I found out that the difference between rapid-rise yeast and regular yeast is that rapid-rise is compounded into smaller granules than regular yeast, so you can add it directly to the dough and skip the proofing step. But that runs the risk of using yeast that's dead.

1) Yeast and salt. Do they get along? A you tube video I watched on pizza dough last week had the host putting the salt on one side of her flour bowl and the yeast on the other. She cautioned viewers not to put them on top of each other as the salt would deactivate the yeast. Never mind that they're both dry and about to get mixed together in the flour. Sounded unscientific, and I'll admit it made my eyes roll.

Like all living organisms, yeast needs salt to live. But not very much. The salt in pizza dough is there for flavor, not for the benefit of the yeasts. If you add the yeast and salt together, you run the risk of killing some of the active yeast cells, or triggering them to go back into spore form because the local environment is too salty.

2) How do yeast and starter get along? The 1/4 tsp of yeast I was using in addition to the 1 cup starter in my early super successful loafs didn't seem to get in the way. But I note that in today's loaf (which by the way, came out GREAT), in which instead of 1/4 tsp yeast + 1 cup starter I used 1 pkg yeast + .5 cup starter and one cup less flour , there's a huge difference in flavor. Today's loaf is super tasty, light and airy with a great crust, but not at all sourdoughish in flavor or the distinctive appearance of shiny/bubbly crust that is distinctly sourdough.

Sourdough starters contain a variety of species of yeast and also some bacteria such as lactobacillus (what makes milk go sour). Commercial yeast has only one variety of one species of yeast. It's critters such as the lactobacillus that contribute the sour character. In your starter you have a mix of microorganisms that all play nice with each other. Commercial yeast secretes antibiotics that kill off other microorganisms. This is great if you're a winemaker or commercial baker trying to avoid off flavors, but not good if you want sourdough bread. In your case I think the commercial yeast managed to overwhelm the starter. So you ended up with good bread--it just wasn't sourdough.

Glad I could help. Having a degree in Biology and a mother who was a bacteriologist is useful sometimes.

-Paul W.

I just spent a half hour writing a long, detailed reply, but when I posted it, the reply vanished. Suffice to say that the commercial yeast took over your sourdough starter, which is why it didn't taste sour.

[Jenise]

In your case I think the commercial yeast managed to overwhelm the starter. So you ended up with good bread--it just wasn't sourdough.

Got it. Thanks so much for all the valuable information. I feel empowered!

[Jenise]

I just spent a half hour writing a long, detailed reply, but when I posted it, the reply vanished. Suffice to say that the commercial yeast took over your sourdough starter, which is why it didn't taste sour.

I may have tubed Paul's earlier post but I swear I had nothing to do with your vanishing reply. Happens to me too sometimes. I know I wrote it, and I know I hit "submit", but it ain't there!

Re my bread, understood. But it was the discard and I got to see what a whole packet of yeast did, so not wasted effort. And the bread's really good.