No-knead bread variations with starter?

Does anyone know or have a reference for how the various factors interact when baking bread? I have been playing around with a truly no-knead bread recipe. The original recipe calls for commercial yeast, AP flour, and 90% hydration. It produces a very nice loaf of bread, but it's a bit dense, lots of small bubbles but not those big ones you see in artisan bread. So I am trying to make it with sourdough starter, bread flour, and possibly higher hydration. If I want a beautiful open crumb, what should I do? There are a lot of variables. For instance, I could add a higher fraction of starter, I am currently using 60g of 100% hydration starter to 400g of flour. I tried using 90g of starter, and the bread rose so quickly it almost filled the bowl. But it didn't seem to result in a significantly airier loaf when turned out and baked. Do I want to go for less starter but longer rises, or vice versa? King Arthur says you want to use some more water when switching to bread flour, so I'll try that next time. Has anyone else played with this?

I think the kneading is what produces those big bubbles that you get in artisan bread. The kneading joins the gluten into a network of stretchy threads.

-Paul W.

I think the kneading is what produces those big bubbles that you get in artisan bread. The kneading joins the gluten into a network of stretchy threads.

-Paul W.

I have no doubt what you're saying is true. At the same time, hydration changes, even leaving the kneading out of it, make a big difference. When I accidentally dropped the hydration to 72% due to a miscalculation of the offset due to the starter, it made a much denser loaf. So I'm trying to maximize what I can get within the constraint of the kneading.

I play around with the same stuff using different variables. Including today. My sourdough bread is presently rising en cloche. I'm using my Tennessee starter this time. I'll let you know about the crumb when it's done. I do both kneading or the autolyse method--just depends what I want to do.

Here are some rambling thoughts: I've done high hydration with sourdough and, as you know, it's a bit difficult to work with. I think I would try a batch or two at a lower hydration rather than higher--such as 80 percent to see if that will open up the crumb..

Try using AP flour instead of bread flour. The higher gluten content in bread flour may make it harder for the crumb to form large holes. I've been trying AP for the last five sourdough breads, and it forms a nice, crisp crust and tender crumb.

Like I said, I've been baking the last several batches in a dutch oven. The dutch oven allows the dough's steam to be trapped. And it allows the bread to rise up instead of spreading out. If you want to further discuss the en clouche method, let me know.

I use about 1/3 cup sourdough starter and let the bread first rise overnight. Other tricks I use: a bit of ascorbic acid to help the yeast (I use a pinch or two of Ball Fruit Fresh); sometimes a TBS of diastatic and/or non-diastatic malt flour; if I'm baking bread not in a dutch oven, I spray the oven every two minutes for the first 10 minutes to help it rise or I have a small cast-iron skillet with steaming water in the bottom of the oven (which I remove after the first 10 minutes). I've learned not to use the convection setting during the first part of the baking, but sometimes I turn it on during the latter portion to better brown the crust.

Out of curiosity, tell me about your sourdough starter.

I think the kneading is what produces those big bubbles that you get in artisan bread. The kneading joins the gluten into a network of stretchy threads.

-Paul W.

Yes, but autolysing the dough will do the same thing and form gluten strands.

I play around with the same stuff using different variables. Including today. My sourdough bread is presently rising en cloche. I'm using my Tennessee starter this time. I'll let you know about the crumb when it's done. I do both kneading or the autolyse method--just depends what I want to do.

Here are some rambling thoughts: I've done high hydration with sourdough and, as you know, it's a bit difficult to work with. I think I would try a batch or two at a lower hydration rather than higher--such as 80 percent to see if that will open up the crumb..

Try using AP flour instead of bread flour. The higher gluten content in bread flour may make it harder for the crumb to form large holes. I've been trying AP for the last five sourdough breads, and it forms a nice, crisp crust and tender crumb.

Like I said, I've been baking the last several batches in a dutch oven. The dutch oven allows the dough's steam to be trapped. And it allows the bread to rise up instead of spreading out. If you want to further discuss the en clouche method, let me know.

I use about 1/3 cup sourdough starter and let the bread first rise overnight. Other tricks I use: a bit of ascorbic acid to help the yeast (I use a pinch or two of Ball Fruit Fresh); sometimes a TBS of diastatic and/or non-diastatic malt flour; if I'm baking bread not in a dutch oven, I spray the oven every two minutes for the first 10 minutes to help it rise or I have a small cast-iron skillet with steaming water in the bottom of the oven (which I remove after the first 10 minutes). I've learned not to use the convection setting during the first part of the baking, but sometimes I turn it on during the latter portion to better brown the crust.

Out of curiosity, tell me about your sourdough starter.

Well, my starter's name is Levi the Levain. What more did you want to know? Kidding, kidding. Well, he really is named Levi. An ex-pastry-chef friend of mine gave him to me, so he's in pretty great shape. When I feed him in less than an hour I see a bunch of new bubbles, and he does seem to double within 2-3 hours the way King Arthur recommends. I keep him in the fridge, bringing him to room temperature before feedings. I limit myself to 1:1:1 starter:flour:water feedings, if I need more I do two a couple hours apart. I don't use volumes for baking, only grams, so I don't know how voluminous my starter is. It's in that ballpark, between .25 and .5 cups. I haven't used anything to perk it up.

Interesting, lower hydration is the opposiite of what someone else told me, but I'll try anything. Actually, I've been driving my spouse crazy because I'll change multiple things at once. I should probably try to do one thing at a time.

My first bread flour loaf will get baked tonight, all the previous ones have been with AP. Don't get me wrong, it's delicious bread, I would just like something with a bit airier texture and more visual appeal.

I have been doing everything in the dutch oven, is that what you mean by en clouche? I upped the oven temperature to 500F, and then I turn it down partway through. I like the crust that produces.

Interesting, lower hydration is the opposiite of what someone else told me, but I'll try anything. Actually, I've been driving my spouse crazy because I'll change multiple things at once. I should probably try to do one thing at a time.

My first bread flour loaf will get baked tonight, all the previous ones have been with AP. Don't get me wrong, it's delicious bread, I would just like something with a bit airier texture and more visual appeal.

I have been doing everything in the dutch oven, is that what you mean by en clouche? I upped the oven temperature to 500F, and then I turn it down partway through. I like the crust that produces.

There are a gazillion techniques out there. Yes, en cloche(in a bell) means my dutch oven, although I've seen cloches for baking bread on some site. I sometimes use the weighing method (particularly for high hydration), but usually I do it by feel.

It's counter-intuitive, but I was wondering if super-high hydration wouldn't give enough structure to prevent collapsing of the large bubbles. It's worth a try. Wattaya got to lose? Even failures are good to eat. A thought: if you do some very minimal kneading by lifting the edges of the dough to center a couple of times, you can trap some air in there.

In this particular recipe I'm perfecting? I keep the temp (425F) the same, but remove the lid after 30 min. By then, the crust has formed and the lid off promotes browning. In other recipes, I do multi temps like you.

While typing this, my bread has come out of the oven and cooled. No large bubbles like you're aiming for, but it has a loose, tender crumb and a dark brown crackly crust. The flavor is fantastic. I had half a slice. The bummer is that I'm on a low-carb diet, so I bake for the fun of it and give it away to wife and friends--half of it just went to a friend I called. (I could eat the whole loaf.)

Does this help?: https://heated.medium.com/jim-lahey-and-mark-bittman-answer-your-baking-questions-b6f1dfa44709

Bittman's one of my favorite food writers. There are some good and interesting tips in his link. But note that he says that is an experiment. FWIW, he does mention the possibility of lowering the hydration for larger holes. I virtually never make all white bread, so I don't know if I'll ever achieve super-large bubbles in my multigrain breads.