All Must Be in Order?

This question is something I have to mentally debate whenever I do a formal dinner (doing one in November and so once again renewing the old struggle).

Do you have a cheese course with a final wine as they do in France followed by sweets, or a dessert followed by the cheese and final wine afterward, as they tend to do in Britain?

On one hand, a sweet dessert does no good to an interesting and often venerable wine served after it. On the other hand, a short break between all the earlier wines and the final usually higher alcohol wine can be beneficial.

I almost always end up going with cheese and Port or Sauternes or what have you first and then am content to abandon the field to the 'pastry people' (I am not a dessert fan). I wondered what the most common practice was among wine fans. I prioritize the wine over food, so opt for whichever will affect my enjoyment of the wine the least.

Or sometimes I dodge the whole issue by reviving the fine English tradition of having a savoury course in place of a sweet one which serves as a palate cleanser before the final wine. I have found that things like an unsweetened Roquefort and walnut tart works perfectly in that role. I have also used savouries like Devils on Horseback, but not the version wrapping dates in bacon, the one wrapping small oysters, or a small piece of toast with some anchovy paste.

Either way, for me the sweet comes last after it can do no harm to the wines being enjoyed that evening (or sometimes not at all).

I don't eat dessert at all, so serve cheese (and then dessert for those that want).

I don't do dessert and cheese courses; it's one or the other. If the guests are primarily wine people then it's cheese, otherwise it's dessert. If I'm doing a traditional menu, like Thanksgiving, then it is even harder to skip the expected desserts.

[Jenise]

I struggle with this, too, Bill. Like you, not into desserts at all. Have no sugar craving whatsoever though, unlike you I actually do like some sweets. But we're talking plain sweets like shortbread or a skinny piece of fruit pie with coffee in the morning--and that's a very rare occasion only coincident with leftovers. I detest goopy/creamy stuff. And after dinner sugar's the last thing I want, my appetite automatically turns off with the main course.

Whether or not my guests are serious wine people makes all the difference. But I generally consider three options: cheese, a simple dessert, or nothing after the main course. In fact tonight I'm having a friend and her brother over. Both grew up in middle California where their father was a Gallo executive, so it's a perfect occasion for upscale Mexican food. I made up the menu while shopping yesterday: scallop ceviche, guacamole salad, pork verde on lime rice with marinated chiles. Dessert is so unessential to me that it never even ONCE crossed my mind to include one--even to decide not to do one! It just didn't enter the picture.

Until she called this morning and volunteered to bring a rhubarb cobbler. She knew not to expect me to make dessert.

I'm in planning mode for our wine group's annual Christmas dinner here. Everyone expects a sweet wine pairing with the (of course) obligatory dessert. I hate that. To me, sweet wines are actually best alone and serve the need all by themselves. This year I'm going to search for a locally made sparkling cider.

Agree that sweet wines ARE dessert, and most certainly wouldn't benefit from having to fight a sweet conventional dessert.

I'm trying to bring my wife around to the idea that we don't need/want a dessert at large dinners. Uphill battle. Thought of servinh her a chocolate bar on a silver plate when everyone else digs into cheese....

[Jenise]

Good luck with that! Suz is pretty staunchly conventional, and of course her beliefs are supported by her personal preferences. And she's got that chocolate craving (Bob does too). Thank god I wasn't born with a sweet tooth.

Btw, my brother, two years older than I, was though. He's going through a serious health crisis and changing his diet. He's not heavy or anything but dairy and sugar are two things that had to go and that's been tough: all his life he's drunk his coffee with cream and sugar. Of course he was into sweets in general too, but he daily calibrated his palate with sweet, creamy coffee. He has also preferred American wines to European and low-end chardonnays and cabernets that you and I would consider goopy. He absolutely loved Apothic Merlot (a mass produced Gallo product aimed at the no-such-thing-as-too-much market), and he hated pinot noir.

But now, after six or so months without cream and sugar? He's had some epiphanies! He's fallen in love with pinot noir. When he visited last month he went absolutely gaga over a 2006 Vieux Donjon. I sent him home with a case of wines with which to continue his education, and the most transformational wine so far? A Mordoree Tavel!

Bottom line: acidity and complexity have completely replaced his former and very recent love of monolithic residual sugar. It's pretty remarkable. When I pointed out to him the likely cause of this change, he was dumbstruck. He fell into a chair and sat there for several minutes mentally reliving the last six months and then acknowledged the differences. He had no idea that sugar could poison a palate or to what degree he'd experienced that. Most people don't.

Interesting to see how different people have such different palates/constitutions. I find it very completing (for the mouth and the stomach) to have fruit after a meal. That is my dessert for pretty much every lunch and dinner, unless I am somehow out in public and otherwise constrained.

I agree about all the wine constraints, but most people that come to my house are not really wine geeks and are pretty much done drinking after the main course wines. Or at least they are not looking to open more bottles after the main course. But sometimes they still have a bit of wine left in their glasses. I would usually finish the wine before moving to dessert but I cringe when I see them going back to a red Burgundy or a dry Loire chenin after eating a dessert of ice cream and pineapple. Somehow they survive, but I always fear it will leave them with negative thoughts about the wine!

[Jenise]

We eat a lot of fruit too, Rahsaan. Our two-course dinners usually include a starter salad, but sometimes instead of salad we have fruit after after the main course. And fruit is often breakfast. I'm guessing that what Bill, Dale and I consider a 'sweet' is along the lines of pastry and ice cream.

Ok, fair enough. Although depending on how seriously you take the no-sweet-tooth thing, I do think that the sweetness (combined with the freshness of natural acidity) of fruit helps to both round out and freshen the palate after a salty/savory meal. When wine is not involved, I would rather have the lingering feeling of most fruits in my mouth in comparison to lingering salty funk of cheese.

[Jenise]

I get it. I love fruit, just don't consider it a 'sweet'. I guess the difference is between sweets humans make and the sweets nature makes. And separate from that, nutritionally, I ensure that we include a lot of raw, unsalted food in our diet and fruit helps round out our day. If I put out a cheese platter for guests, fruit's always included.

Aha, well then, that certainly makes lots of sense!