Restaurant Service...what would you have tipped?

OK, a group of 3 couples (separate checks which are never my preference) went out for lunch today and we clearly identified who went on what check prior to ordering. So far so good.
The food and drink orders were taken reasonably promptly.
When the food arrived, the server had no idea of who ordered what.
No check back on how the meal was, not even the obligatory "Is everything OK"
When we finished eating, we sat and sat with uncleared dishes that were finally cleared when we ordered coffees and/or dessert.
When the tabs arrived, they were hopelessly mixed up. We tried to work with her to get it straightened out, but it became painfully obvious the lass did not graduate in the top of her class. Out of frustration, we asked that she add the 3 tabs and then simply divide by 3. It then became clear that arithmetic wasn't her strong suit either. She left, just before I was ready to put her out of her misery, and did somehow manage to get the tabs divided evenly.
The food itself was very good.
The three couples, who generally are good tippers left 0%, 12% and 30%.
What would you have tipped?

10%, which is what I tip as a token gesture.

The three couples, who generally are good tippers left 0%, 12% and 30%.
What would you have tipped?

Quite the spread!

I would have given standard 15%. Because they didn't seem malicious, just not very talented.

Separate checks- yuck.
OK, so food arrived reasonably promptly. I don't especially care if someone asks me how everything is- I'm capable of flagging down if problems. While I don't like separate checks, since group asked I'd expect her to comply. I'd tip 15%, because that's what I regard as low end of normal ( I only go under for what I regard as flagrant bad service). Food quality is immaterial. If I knew someone else was doing 0% I'd probably tip 25%
20% is my norm, I'll adjust based on good/bad service by 5% total each way.
If there was corkage/BYO, I generally try to tip as if bottle had been at 75 percentile of winelist. If wine dinner with reasonable corkage, we generally do for 25-30% tip.;

[Robin Garr]

I expect the 30 percent tipper felt obliged to make up for his cheapskate friend.

While I'm not taking any blame away on the restaurant's side you set her up to fail. I think you (your group) are/is partially to blame here.

[Robin Garr]

Oops, I didn't give an actual answer in the post above, although I really meant it. I know that I have overtipped in partial penance for a low/no-tipper in a group, and I'll probably do it again.

I would probably still tip 20 percent (rounded up to the nearest dollar) in this case. She's not very good at her job. She's not making much. The choice seems to me to be between sticking a thumb in her eye or performing a random act of kindness. If she's not that good, she's probably struggling in more ways than one.

While I'm not taking any blame away on the restaurant's side you set her up to fail. I think you (your group) are/is partially to blame here.

Aside from the separate checks what else could we be blamed for?


FWIW, I agree with the comments about the separate checks, but we're the last to "join" this group and that is how they've always operated. i guess we could always opt out of the group, but NJ and I enjoy their company. It is odd that they want separate checks since the food items on luncheon are always equitably priced. I don't drink, but most of the others do have a beer/drink or two, so check splitting would actually "save" them money.

She's not very good at her job. She's not making much.

In this case, there is probably a direct correlation. The sad part is she mentioned she's been at this place for 3 years..

As far as the one party being "cheapskates" I'd have to disagree with that TIC/flip characterization. They are very generous, demand less than the average patron, and generally tip in the 25%-30% range. I'll go out on a limb here and simply state that the vast majority of servers would gladly put up with the inconvenience/annoyance of separate checks in return for our group's normal 25-30% tip on a relatively simple lunch service.

[Robin Garr]

As far as the one party being "cheapskates" I'd have to disagree with that TIC/flip characterization. They are very generous, demand less than the average patron, and generally tip in the 25%-30% range. I'll go out on a limb here and simply state that the vast majority of servers would gladly put up with the inconvenience/annoyance of separate checks in return for our group's normal 25-30% tip on a relatively simple lunch service.

Knowing you, Bill, I am in absolutely no doubt about that. "Cheapskate" was a snap reaction, and I accept and respect your analysis of your friend's usual tipping practice. Speaking only for myself, though, the only circumstances I can imagine in which I'd leave a $0.00 tip would require an actual demonstration of overt personal animus by the server, and my lack-of-tip would be accompanied by a frank discussion with both the server and the owner. I realize that others' mileage may vary on all of this, but that's what I've got.

I realize that others' mileage may vary on all of this, but that's what I've got.

That's fair enough and part of the reason I posed the original question. I suspected there would be a few different slants on the situation.
FWIW, I'm the guy that thought he cut his customary tip by half. I now see that as I'm not very good at arithmetic either. I actually tipped just over 15% although it was my intent to be a bit lower than that.

I pretty much go with a standard 15%, maybe rounded up. Rarely go beyond that, as I am stuck somewhere just past the middle, leaning toward the American side but feeling cavalierly European re tipping: Prefer to be European, but realize waitpeople are shat upon by owners/managers in this great country of ours.

This young lady sounds like she has already exceeded the Peter Principle, but as was said, she was just somewhat incompetent, so I'd still give the standard 15%.

Re the separate issue of separate checks: sphincter control is a necessary and admirable quality in our over-crowded society, but I'd tell these other people they are being silly and tight-assed in their attitudes. If I go out dining with someone in a group and figure they're so chinchy the worry about not paying to the exact penny and are concerned that I may profit by a whole dollar or so on their abstemious eating practices...well, I may go out with them again, but I would think much the less of them in future.

(All that said, when 'winger orders the Romanee-Conti for the table and then drinks most of it himself, I will suddenly develop alligator arm syndrome and stick him with the whole tab. Fortunately, I know he prefers Huber.)

[Robin Garr]

I pretty much go with a standard 15%, maybe rounded up.

Hoke, I'd argue that the 21st century standard is, and has been, 20%, and for diners and similarly modest places, a floor of $5 no matter what the actual percentage is. I'm not trying to snark on you, but if you go out to dine much in Portland and are customarily paying only 15 percent, I'd venture that you're getting some dirty glares at your back when you go out.

Tipping 0% is never ok. If service is bad, then take it up with the manager, but you never know the whole story behind what is going on. It wasn't stated if the restaurant was busy at the time of visit, but if it is during the standard lunch hour I'm guessing this wasn't the server's only table. While the guest may think that splitting checks shouldn't be a big deal, some restaurant POS systems make it at a minimum a nuisance and at worst near impossible to do quickly and easily. If the server didn't get it right the first time, and the tone of the opening post sounded like she was busy as she wasn't at the table often, that would be the time to call the manager over and ask them to split the check to your satisfaction.

Tipping anything less than 20%, if unaccompanied by a note or chat with the manager to explain why you believed service was sub-par, conveys only the message that you as a diner are a cheapskate. You can rant and rave all you want about a less than 20% being called for, but from the perspective of one in the service industry, poor tipping falls back on the customer, not the server. There are a lot of bad servers out there who have no idea how bad they are. They won't get your reasoning behind leaving a low tip unless you explain it. They will just think you are a jerk.

Tipping 0% is never ok. If service is bad, then take it up with the manager, but you never know the whole story behind what is going on. It wasn't stated if the restaurant was busy at the time of visit, but if it is during the standard lunch hour I'm guessing this wasn't the server's only table. While the guest may think that splitting checks shouldn't be a big deal, some restaurant POS systems make it at a minimum a nuisance and at worst near impossible to do quickly and easily. If the server didn't get it right the first time, and the tone of the opening post sounded like she was busy as she wasn't at the table often, that would be the time to call the manager over and ask them to split the check to your satisfaction.

Tipping anything less than 20%, if unaccompanied by a note or chat with the manager to explain why you believed service was sub-par, conveys only the message that you as a diner are a cheapskate. You can rant and rave all you want about a less than 20% being called for, but from the perspective of one in the service industry, poor tipping falls back on the customer, not the server. There are a lot of bad servers out there who have no idea how bad they are. They won't get your reasoning behind leaving a low tip unless you explain it. They will just think you are a jerk.

It was not busy. Just what I would characterize as a normal lunch crowd. A steady flow and no wait at the door. I have no idea of how many other tables were assigned to that server as I was enjoying the company and conversation, plus my back was toward the rest of the restaurant. I did not get a general sense that the place was in-the- weeds.
Frankly, if a POS is a POS and can't easily accommodate split checks or if you as a business owner don't want to be bothered with that nonsense then don't do it, and post that prominently on your menu. I've seen many places have a policy of no split checks for parties of more than X and have no problem with that.
I'm sure that many people, not only servers, don't know how bad they are doing their job. It's the "above average" syndrome. That is more the responsibility of management that the client. Almost any job should have a set of standards that allows most employees to know how well they are performing against those standards. Failure to have those standards and/or failure to communicate compliance with those standards is a failure of management IMO.

Tipping 0% is never ok.
...

Tipping anything less than 20%, if unaccompanied by a note or chat with the manager to explain why you believed service was sub-par, conveys only the message that you as a diner are a cheapskate. You can rant and rave all you want about a less than 20% being called for, but from the perspective of one in the service industry, poor tipping falls back on the customer, not the server.

Whoa, hey, hold on a minute. You're saying that I, as a customer, am obligated to provide you 20%, at minimum, of whatever the final check will be, regardless of anything that happens in between? And if I don't do so, then I am a cheapskate?

That may be the "perspective of one in the service industry", but it sure as hell isn't the one the average customer holds. You might want to rethink that. I have no obligation to even walk in the place. I have no obligation, when it comes right down to it, to doing anything but enjoy my meal and pay for it. The tip is what I decide---and if that makes me a cheapskate, golly, I guess I'll just have to bear that cross. (Not really; no one wants to be a cheapskate. Well, almost no one.)

We as customers don't have any obligation to teach good management and service skills. Neither is it our obligation to provide instruction or correct wrongs: we are there for the service that restaurant is supposed to provide We are paying you our money for a service, and if you don't provide that service appropriately, then, sorry, you have broken the contract (lawyer talk there). And like it or not, you the waitperson are seen as part and parcel of the management.

You want to always blame the customer when you get a bad tip? Again, you might want to rethink your choice of profession. When I was working tables I didn't think "Oh, he didn't give me a tip, so he must be a cheapskate. Couldn't possibly be anything to do with me." While that may have been the case (I was pretty good at what I did, but hey, shit happens), and there are some cheapskates out there, I didn't assume the customer was always wrong. And sometimes the lousy tip was over something I couldn't control (like said restaurant management or a surly cook, and sorry but you know what: that's not the customer's fault either.

While we're at it, and you've already decided I am a ranting, raving cheapskate based on a practice which I thought---and still believe based on the research (um, googling madly) I've done, I might as well live up to your expectations: All my life, since I too was in the service industry for goodly stretches, and then since I progressed and was fortunate in being able to earn and spend more money in restaraunts and bars, I have payed careful attention to being a very good tipper. I was careful not to stiff people, even tipped out full rate when it clearly wasn't deserved because I respected the role of the server, and never tipped below, and sometimes I was way above, the standard that I was given.

Then to have someone rather blithely piss all over me for that makes me more than a little perturbed. If you're a server, you might want to check your attitude at the door.

And Robin, thanks for the more avuncular approach to suggesting that the standards may have changed. I'll admit I am at that age where I could be termed an old fogey and out of it, but I have to say that all the "research" I've just madly done (um, googling; hell on the fingertips, you know) has indicated to me that the prevailing standard across the country still seems to be the 10/15/20%+ paradigm...with 15% being the more often proposed standard, 20% or more for truly exceptional service, and the 10% for average to sub-average service. Yes, there are indications that, primarily in major cities, and there limited to top-end restaurants, that higher rates may be appropriate (with New York mentioned as expecting nothing lower than 25%; but then New York is always different).

I imagine what we're seeing here is "tip level creep", with the former 15% sliding up to 20%, and yes, it may be entirely possible that I am being an old fuddy-duddy (Why, back in my day the kids used to pay us tips when we came in the restaurant!!!). And I don't resent the idea of a 20% tip: it's just that was the standard I was instructed in. But, honestly, I haven't ever gotten the stink eye with my tips, so they must be totally behind my back. And I usually check very closely what other folks are tipping when we split checks and such. Never been seen to be the chinchy one in the bunch. I will attempt to be more aware of the situation in future. I don't ever want to be in the position of stiffing a waitperson, because I know the great majority of them are doing an often thankless and quite difficult job (well, when done correctly anyway) and I am appreciative of their efforts.

You know what I'd like? I'd like for restaurants to stop taking advantage of their waitstaff AND their customers. Pay the staff a reasonable wage, so tips aren't part of their salary. And, yes, if you have to, pass the cost along to the customer, and let the customer decide if they want to come back again or not. What we've got now is, and always will be, patently unfair and dishonest to the average waitperson.

My initial reaction is that I'd have probably given somewhere around 10%. The whole idea of tipping, as far as I understand it, is that your tip reflects the level of service you've received. That was also how I understood it when I worked in restaurants. From 'Winger's description, the service was significantly poorer than the basic level one would expect from a decent restaurant and therefore, my tip should be reduced from the basic level I'd give for the expected level of service. There were times when I worked in restaurants where I knew that (for whatever reason) my service wasn't up to par, I didn't get a very good tip, and I did not feel poorly treated in the least.

Joy's point is well taken. If you want to really have an impact on improving that level of service then you should talk to the manager. That's not in any way your obligation as a customer, though. Your obligation as a customer is to pay your bill and to tip fairly for the service you've received. I generally tip 20% for good, professional-level service. Anyone who can not handle splitting a lunch tab three ways is not providing that kind of service and the tip should be reduced accordingly. That's the way the system (as I understand it) is supposed to work.

That said, I have a hard time imagining a circumstance in which I'd completely stiff a server. Having done that kind of work and knowing how hard it is, I don't think I could do that for anything short of being physically assaulted.

[Robin Garr]

Here's a pretty good reflection on 20% (rising toward 25%) as the national standard:

http://www.today.com/food/25-new-standa ... -1B5989931

Almost any job should have a set of standards that allows most employees to know how well they are performing against those standards. Failure to have those standards and/or failure to communicate compliance with those standards is a failure of management IMO.

It is absolutely the responsibility of management to ensure their staff meets the restaurant's standard of service. Unless they are constantly following their servers and hovering over their shoulders at tables, how are they to find out about some of these shortcomings if the guest doesn't bring it to their attention? I do believe some of the responsibility lies there. If you weren't happy with your service, then you should bring it to the attention of a manager. Tipping x% less than norm doesn't get that point across.

Tipping 0% is never ok.
...

Tipping anything less than 20%, if unaccompanied by a note or chat with the manager to explain why you believed service was sub-par, conveys only the message that you as a diner are a cheapskate. You can rant and rave all you want about a less than 20% being called for, but from the perspective of one in the service industry, poor tipping falls back on the customer, not the server.



Whoa, hey, hold on a minute. You're saying that I, as a customer, am obligated to provide you 20%, at minimum, of whatever the final check will be, regardless of anything that happens in between? And if I don't do so, then I am a cheapskate?

Hoke, if you would have read the part that said " if unaccompanied by a note or chat with the manager to explain why you believed service was sub-par", then you would have answered your own question. Because, yes, if you simply tip less than 20%, with no explanation, your server will view you as being cheap. Unless something catastrophic happened, or you were very vocal to express your displeasure, the server will have no idea. You might think it should be obvious, but it isn't. Go poll 20 random servers/bartenders. You will get the same answer.

That may be the "perspective of one in the service industry", but it sure as hell isn't the one the average customer holds.

You are absolutely right. I'm sure most customers have no idea that their tipping % conveys a message, for good or bad. There are still a lot of people out there who are oblivious to the 20% norm. And there are also a lot of really cheap people out there who will drop $200+ on a fancy dinner and once the bill arrives show such sticker shock that the server gets the brunt of it.

We as customers don't have any obligation to teach good management and service skills. Neither is it our obligation to provide instruction or correct wrongs: we are there for the service that restaurant is supposed to provide We are paying you our money for a service, and if you don't provide that service appropriately, then, sorry, you have broken the contract (lawyer talk there). And like it or not, you the waitperson are seen as part and parcel of the management.

Again, unless management hovers over every server or installs hidden cameras, how are they supposed to provide instruction to their staff unless someone brings those wrongs to their attention? It is the responsibility of the SERVER to alert management when there is a problem at a table, or a guest has expressed their displeasure, or they have screwed something up royally Aside from that - restaurant staff aren't mind readers. If you don't tell them you are unhappy, don't expect it to get better.

You want to always blame the customer when you get a bad tip? Again, you might want to rethink your choice of profession. When I was working tables I didn't think "Oh, he didn't give me a tip, so he must be a cheapskate. Couldn't possibly be anything to do with me." While that may have been the case (I was pretty good at what I did, but hey, shit happens), and there are some cheapskates out there, I didn't assume the customer was always wrong. And sometimes the lousy tip was over something I couldn't control (like said restaurant management or a surly cook, and sorry but you know what: that's not the customer's fault either.

.

I have been in the restaurant world for several years. I take my job very seriously and act professionally. I am often complemented by guests as having given them the best service they have ever received and thanked me for my knowledge and care. I work at a fine dining restaurant that doesn't tolerate bad servers. I have been doing this long enough to know when something goes wrong at a table and how to fix it. It is our job to make people happy when they come in to eat. So, yes, if a guest has expressed their happiness and nothing has gone wrong and they tip less than 20%, I'm not going to take the blame for it. And 9 times out of 10, when something bad happens and the guest is unhappy, if we can turn it around and fix it and show them our deepest apologies and do everything we can to make it right, that guest will tip 20% or MORE because they are so happy that we tried so hard to please them.

You aren't going to get the same service at Applebees that you will get at the French Laundry. There are a lot of terrible servers out there. I have a really hard time eating out because I am always watching service, and I can always find something to pick on. But, unless the server was grossly negligent (and I would bring it up to management), then I tip 20%, usually more.

While we're at it, and you've already decided I am a ranting, raving cheapskate based on a practice which I thought---and still believe based on the research (um, googling madly) I've done, I might as well live up to your expectations: All my life, since I too was in the service industry for goodly stretches, and then since I progressed and was fortunate in being able to earn and spend more money in restaraunts and bars, I have payed careful attention to being a very good tipper. I was careful not to stiff people, even tipped out full rate when it clearly wasn't deserved because I respected the role of the server, and never tipped below, and sometimes I was way above, the standard that I was given.

Then to have someone rather blithely piss all over me for that makes me more than a little perturbed. If you're a server, you might want to check your attitude at the door.

Hoke, at no point were my comments directed at you. I was responding to the opening post. For you to get so defensive and come back guns blazing I find to be a bit of an overreaction. Obviously this struck a nerve with you. What shocks me is the fact that you admit to having been in the service industry in the past and can still spout this sort of reaction. When you were in the industry, and were tipped poorly, was it obvious to you that it was your fault? C'mon - you know this isn't the case, unless something went obviously wrong. I would think you should be more sympathetic than most. Ex-servers usually tip more than the general public because they know how crummy the job can be and how many people tip badly.

I have been a server in the past, as well as a bartender, sommelier, wine director, floor manager, etc. This isn't about my attitude. I get defensive for servers when people bring things like this up, because a lot of people don't treat them well and view them as servants rather than human beings. Diners have a responsibility to maintain a level of decorum; if you can't afford to tip, or don't want to tip appropriately, then stay home. If you have a problem in a restaurant, bring it to the manager's attention. Better yet, when you get an awesome server who took wonderful care of you, bring it to the manager's attention. Don't just be a verbal tipper.

The server described in the opening post didn't do a good job. She wasn't attentive and messed up the split checks. But it didn't sound like she was apologetic and trying to make up for it either. Sounds to me like this is her normal MO and she had no idea she did a bad job. Who knows? But tipping below average doesn't help the situation. She's not going to get the idea that way.

You know what I'd like? I'd like for restaurants to stop taking advantage of their waitstaff AND their customers. Pay the staff a reasonable wage, so tips aren't part of their salary. And, yes, if you have to, pass the cost along to the customer, and let the customer decide if they want to come back again or not. What we've got now is, and always will be, patently unfair and dishonest to the average waitperson.

AMEN!!!

Almost any job should have a set of standards that allows most employees to know how well they are performing against those standards. Failure to have those standards and/or failure to communicate compliance with those standards is a failure of management IMO.

It is absolutely the responsibility of management to ensure their staff meets the restaurant's standard of service. Unless they are constantly following their servers and hovering over their shoulders at tables, how are they to find out about some of these shortcomings if the guest doesn't bring it to their attention? I do believe some of the responsibility lies there. If you weren't happy with your service, then you should bring it to the attention of a manager. Tipping x% less than norm doesn't get that point across.

Joy-
Does it require hovering to see that dirty plates were not cleared until at least 15 minutes had passed since the last chew? I would think a quick glance around the room would give a clue to a competent manager. I will admit that I'm a stickler on this and my standards may be higher than most on this issue. I'm the same at home.

Another small detail, I left out of the OP is that when she first tried to hand us the checks, I had to ask for the dessert menu, which I subsequently ordered. I would think up selling should be automatic, especially with a 3 year employee. I'm sure that threw her off her game as she had to recalculate the bill.

Although it is remotely possible that this server was just having a bad day, I doubt it. If it was just a bad day, then we suffered. If this was a normal pattern, you'd think management would be aware of the situation. If standards are established then it is indeed a primary function of management to determine if those standards are being met and have metrics in place that measure performance without hovering or micro-managing. IMO, using clients to manage your compliance with standards is not good management.

Also, I'm reluctant to report bad service or even marginal service to anyone. After the fact there is really very little the restaurant team can do to improve my experience. It's done. A comped meal of dessert doesn't make the shortcomings more palatable to me.

Joy, I'd say both of us had nerves touched. I thought (and still think) some parts of your post were exaggerations (as, yes, I admit, some of mine were as well). And I suspect we are much closer than one might think in our overall consideration of this issue. So now that we both have spouted and (hopefully) mostly gotten past that, I'm pleased to moderate my position from my previous extreme.

You are justifiably defensive about your profession, and I do understand that position. I don't always look at it from the same perspective though: understanding and agreement are not always the same thing. And my major failing here is taking some of your comments personally (although, again, it was difficult not to do so considering how they were phrased).

But back to the issue and the cause of the post: was the 0% tip uncalled for? I'd agree that it was, mosdef. Was the 10% tip light (especially without going to management)? For me, yeah; for others, maybe not. Because the customer was looking at it from the customer's point of view, not the waitstaff pov. I'll say again: the customer is under no obligation whatsoever to do anything but enjoy the meal and pay for it accordingly. And said customer has every "right" to express their displeasure however they wish to do so (even, yes, if they are being boorish about it in your eyes.)

What all this comes down to is the largely unspoken protocol of dining in America. What's the right and proper tip, and what's the generally ascribed etiquette for handling waitstaff and restaurant management, and how should disagreements or poor service be handled? All of that is vague enough as to be confusing and, to both customer and staff, frustrating and sometimes infuriating.

I don't blame the waitstaff though----I blame the system and, yes, how the system fucks over the waitstaff in order to throw the actual cost of doing business on to the staff and the customer instead of establishing a more sane and just basic wage. To me, this is all part and parcel of the sham of the hospitality industry---hotels don't cost what they say they cost; most airlines don't cost what they say they cost; restaurants don't cost what they pretend they cost. Instead they charge pretend prices and then expect poorly paid---no, underpaid---waitstaff to be supported by customers. So the real cost of a meal, born by the customer is not what is posted----it's 115--125% of what is posted. And that, when they stop to think about, is what gets most customers irked: wait, I paid X amount for the meal, and now you expect 25% more for bringing it to me (and yes, yes, I know it's more than that, Joy; way more than that; but I'm talking about the average customer's feelings) and you get upset if I don't cough it up?

So that's the gist, really: the system inherently sucks, because it's built to suck, and all it does it subsidize the owners (who then complain, in some cases rightly) that they are suffering too because they just can't make a living the way things are---although I see a hell of a lot fewer owners suffering than waitstaff.

As to Appelbee's versus the French Laundry: Heh! Since I never expect anything from Applebee's except, hopefully, most of the right food arriving at more or less the right time, and my expectations of the Laundry are exquisitely high (as they should be, because they are led to be that high), yep, entirely different standards and thus entirely different rewards.

(Thanks for the discussion, by the way. And thanks for airing your views honestly.)

Here's a pretty good reflection on 20% (rising toward 25%) as the national standard:

http://www.today.com/food/25-new-standa ... -1B5989931

And I could just as easily cite, oh, about thirty different sites to every one you have that directly and specifically support the 10/15/20 standard.

I suspect much of it has to do with how/what is googled. If you're looking for support for 25% tips and state it that way, you'll find it. If you type in "standard tip etiquette", you're more likely (right now) to still get the 10/15/20.

I suspect, as usual, that we are both right, if to differing degrees. The (god I hate to say this) "conservative" approach to tipping in this country, overall, is still in the 10/15/20, but the "tip creep" is trending higher, with New York, as always, leading the trend.

Not wanting to be seen as stiffing anyone, I'll be more observant when it comes to tipping---investigating more, and probably tipping a little higher than I've always though was standard.

But I'll also be honest: tip creep kinda pisses me off, because it does nothing but subsidize an inherently crappy and phony system. Waitstaff should NOT have to depend on the kindness of strangers to provide them with a decent and honorable and proper living wage for what they do, all in order to subsidize a lousy system. (Which is why I prefer the European system, although in this global economy, that's beginning to erode too.)

Joy-
Does it require hovering to see that dirty plates were not cleared until at least 15 minutes had passed since the last chew? I would think a quick glance around the room would give a clue to a competent manager. I will admit that I'm a stickler on this and my standards may be higher than most on this issue. I'm the same at home.

Another small detail, I left out of the OP is that when she first tried to hand us the checks, I had to ask for the dessert menu, which I subsequently ordered. I would think up selling should be automatic, especially with a 3 year employee. I'm sure that threw her off her game as she had to recalculate the bill.

Although it is remotely possible that this server was just having a bad day, I doubt it. If it was just a bad day, then we suffered. If this was a normal pattern, you'd think management would be aware of the situation. If standards are established then it is indeed a primary function of management to determine if those standards are being met and have metrics in place that measure performance without hovering or micro-managing. IMO, using clients to manage your compliance with standards is not good management.

Also, I'm reluctant to report bad service or even marginal service to anyone. After the fact there is really very little the restaurant team can do to improve my experience. It's done. A comped meal of dessert doesn't make the shortcomings more palatable to me.

If none of the staff noticed your dirty plates sitting there for 15 minutes, then it sounds like the rest of the staff and manager are equally as incompetent as your server was. If the server wasn't trained to upsell, and obviously not how to split checks, after being there for three years, then the bigger issue is bad management. If the service staff at that restaurant is poorly trained and not meeting the level of the food, either bring it up to the manager/owner, or go somewhere else. Doesn't sound like they are just going to improve on their own.

You may not think there is any benefit to YOU by reporting bad service, but what about for the next guest? You can write the place off as having crappy service and never come back, or you can be helpful to the next person that comes into the door by saying something, either in person, or through a phone call or email or online review later.

You may not think there is any benefit to YOU by reporting bad service, but what about for the next guest? You can write the place off as having crappy service and never come back, or you can be helpful to the next person that comes into the door by saying something, either in person, or through a phone call or email or online review later.

Which opens up another whole different can of worms, Joy: the infamous YELPness. Since the largely anonymous and "safe" YELP and others of ilk allow capricious posting of just about anything a person wants to say about a restaurant (and it amazes me no end how clueless most complainers are on those places, how picayune, how petty, how often downright stupid), it comes down to a whole lot of discombobulated whining and moaning, often unfair but hard to tell either way in some cases, about any given restaurant.

I tend to not even go to those places anymore, since the quality of the observation is usually minimal and the tenure of the complaints are so vacuous. For every thoughtful Filigenzi-type posting astute comments there are about 1000 idiots, on average.

(In this instance, I'm thinking it is just a generally badly managed restaurant operation. Sadly, not at all uncommon. We should call Gordon Ramsay. )