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Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

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Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Frank Deis » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:27 pm

OK, I am an East Coast guy and when I have bought airplane tickets for vacation, Europe has generally won out over CA.

But not this time. We have not nailed anything down but I think around June 10 we'll fly out to San Francisco and spend a few days there, and maybe drive up to Napa and Sonoma before returning. Never set foot in California before.

Aziza is on my list (Mourad's place). Where else should I go? I realize that if we go to Yountville, I should have made my French Laundry reservations in January. But are Keller's other restaurants well worth a trip?

And cheap food, what do you do when you aren't going to an expensive restaurant in SFO? The famous trucks are all down in L.A., right?

I know this board has left coast people, and you probably have good ideas for me?

Thanks in advance. :D
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Carl Eppig » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:47 pm

It's never too late to check out Fisherman's Wharf.
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Frank Deis » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:49 pm

FWIW my well traveled friend says Fisherman's Wharf is an "AVOID"!!

But chacun a son propre gout I suppose...
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by wnissen » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:20 pm

Fisherman's Wharf is really barely worth seeing. Crowded but lacking the glitz of Times Square. Maybe get a bowl of clam chowder in a sourdough bread bowl and watch the sea lions for a few minutes, then head out. Alcatraz and the Golden Gate are deserving of their fame, though fog can always play a role, particularly in the early morning.

As for food, the neighborhood places in San Francisco are really outstanding. Honestly, depending on where you stay, there are enough to keep you busy for a long time. Even just sticking to places that are easily accessible on BART, there's various branches of Delfina, Limon, Flour and Water, Absinthe, Indigo, RN74 (though they just lost their chef)[Edit, I was wrong], etc., etc. Places like the Mission and SoMa have multiple very good restaurants in many genres, from German to Italian to dim sum to Mexican. If you know where you're staying and what your tastes are, I'd be happy to make more specific recommendations.

That said, for a blowout meal, 45 minutes south of San Francisco, Manresa in Los Gatos is, for me, a must do and much easier to reserve than the French Laundry. The French Laundry is certainly fancier, and everyone agrees it is the best restaurant in California, but it's also a very difficult reservation. Manresa is richly ingredient-driven from a farm in Santa Cruz, and a real delight. Disclosure: they know us there, and we tip big, but my experience has been replicated by many others.

Walt
Last edited by wnissen on Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Frank Deis » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:11 pm

I have known about Manresa for several years, but it had not occurred to me to go there. Thanks so much for the suggestion!
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Dale Williams » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:23 pm

wnissen wrote:RN74 (though they just lost their chef),

ack! Really? I haven't been, but that was tops on my list- the chef (Jason Berthold) is an acquaintance and I hoped to go there while he was there. Damn.

A tasting menu at Manresa would rank in top 5 restaurant meals of my life, it was fabulous (some almost "molecular" type stuff, but nothing that seemed to be anything but flavor driven)
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Jeff Grossman » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:54 pm

Stinking Rose (...a garlic restaurant).
Incanto (...I can have the handkerchief pasta for entree and dessert).
Slanted Door.

Also try dim sum in Chinatown.
Some good Mexican, too.
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by wnissen » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:21 pm

Dale Williams wrote:
wnissen wrote:RN74 (though they just lost their chef),

ack! Really? I haven't been, but that was tops on my list- the chef (Jason Berthold) is an acquaintance and I hoped to go there while he was there. Damn.

A tasting menu at Manresa would rank in top 5 restaurant meals of my life, it was fabulous (some almost "molecular" type stuff, but nothing that seemed to be anything but flavor driven)

Dear Dale,

Oops, my fault, I was confusing them with Plum, which recently lost Charlie Parker. I read this interesting list of the 15 restaurants off the SF Chronicle's Top 100 list: http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/20 ... -100-list/ and while it did have something negative to say about RN74, it's the wine prices and service. For what it's worth, the wine is very expensive, but in my opinion treated with superb care in both selection and service. I don't mind paying $10 for a two ounce taste if it's in pristine condition, well-paired, and served in appropriate stemware. Plus the interior is an absolute delight.

It's a shame Plum lost their chef, because that was one of the more exciting meals I've had in the Bay Area, and I was looking forward to trying out Plum Bar.

Stinking Rose was a disappointment for me because of how timid the garlic flavor was. I was really hoping for GARLIC. That was 15 years ago, but I hear similar things lately. Slanted Door is also very difficult to get into, though the food is just as good as it ever was, ditto the wine list despite originator Ellenbogen's departure. Try the bar if you can, but honestly if I were in a hurry, the Out The Door location in the "food court" of the Westfield (enter through Powell St. BART) is a great place for someone seeing downtown to drop in, get some fresh Californiafied Vietnamese food and a glass of Hexamer riesling. We've gone there before symphony concerts, and there's lots of good stuff, especially if you and your traveling companions can't agree on a cuisine. You can get seriously runny cheese and Acme baguettes at the Bristol Farms grocery store to take for a picnic, or oysters on the half shell at a seafood joint.

Walt
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Mike Filigenzi » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:30 am

For relatively cheap eats, you might hit the Ferry Building. Grab an Acme baguette, some of the Cowgirl cheese, some tasty salted pig parts at Boccalone, some macarons, and a bottle of wine and you'll have yourself the makings for a hell of a picnic. If the weather is good, it's worth trying. Since the Slanted Door is in the same building, you could pop in there before getting picnic fixings on the (very) off chance that you could score a table for lunch.

If you happen by the Ferry Building on a Saturday, you can add to your provisions with goodies from the farmers' market there. Lots of prepared food at that market as well as produce and such.

If you have a taste for fast food burgers, then you might want to hit In 'n Out at some point. Lots of folks love them, some don't, but they're an institution.

Edit: Oops! Forgot to mention Della Santina, a favorite restaurant of mine that's just off the square in Sonoma. Great Italian food.
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Hoke » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:39 am

What Walt said.

Skip Fisherman's Wharf unless you like kitsch and thousands of cheap fleece and sweatshirts. Do what Mike says and go to the Ferry Building. Cool place. You can go to the Buena Vista though, and have an Irish Coffee, for which they are famous.

And In 'n Out, fer shure.

Also:

Quince

Acquerello

Dosa in SoMa for good Indian food

Burma Superstar on Klement (simple, straightforward, and absolutely AWESOME food. If you go you have to order the Fermented Green Tea Salad;heaven itself.)

Sonoma (town of): Cafe LaHaye, make a reservation; it's tiny. Say hello to Saul (owner.) Stroll the Plaza afterward; you'll like it.

Yountville: go, stroll, windowshop. Plenty of good places. For casual, Willi's Seafood and Raw Bar just off Plaza is great; excellent small plates, decent wine, good cocktails.

Napa: Lou Kessler knows all the good places.

I like Keller's other places. They both do a great job. Pastry/bakery is good too. There's a Foster's Freeze in St. Helena

For CalItalian, Bistro Don Giovanni, just north of Napa town on the highway.
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Jeff Grossman » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:44 am

Don't waste your time on In 'n Out. There are better burgers.
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Frank Deis » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:01 pm

Jeff Grossman/NYC wrote:Don't waste your time on In 'n Out. There are better burgers.


But then where will I drink my '61 Petrus out of a styrofoam cup???
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by wnissen » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:19 pm

Frank Deis wrote:
Jeff Grossman/NYC wrote:Don't waste your time on In 'n Out. There are better burgers.


But then where will I drink my '61 Petrus out of a styrofoam cup???

Great question, Frank! With the popularity of Sideways, many establishments now cater to the quasi-functional intellectual alcoholic. In-N-Out offers the popular "Buy a Double-Double with fries, and the styrofoam cup is on us!" promotion. McDonalds, not wanting to lose market share, not only provides the cup, but a selection of pain relievers for the next morning, as well as a replacement sense of dignity to replace the one you've irrevocably squandered.
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Keith M » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:27 am

A lot depends on where you are staying, what form of transport you plan to use and what type of experience you seek.

I strongly recommend Aziza. The Saturday farmers market at the Ferry Building is a very SF experience. The food truck scene in SF is also quite something, check out Off the Grid. And, as a winelover an evening at Terroir wine bar in SoMa with a run across the street to whatever awesome food truck is there that evening would likely be memorable. Mission Chinese Food is getting a lot of buzz and would be a very fun urban culinary experience if you are feeling adventurous. Lers Ros has some really awesome dishes if you are looking for Thai (the very well participated Chowhound forum is a good resource for the lowdown). It has two locations: a swankier new location with a geekworthy wine list in the Hayes Valley theater district or the old skool Tenderloin location with a shudderworthy winelist but silly cheap corkage.

Depends what you are looking for, but I strongly recommend mixing and matching your experiences. SF has more to offer than even residents get around to trying out.
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by GeoCWeyer » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:33 pm

Close to the corner of Bush and Powell is a small hotel named the Cornell Hotel. It is owned by a French couple. In the basement they have a restaurant named Joan of Ark (in French) The have a fixed price 4 course French dinner that is very nice. I think the price now should be about $35 or so. Look at their Web site Cornellhotel.com. We have always loved the place. There are usually 2 selections each of soup and salad and about 10 entree choices and then 2-3 for dessert. If you have a party of 4 ask if they would make their Gran Mariner Souffle. It is our favorite.

When in SF we always eat there once each trip. The hotel itself is a clean rustic hotel with a old fashioned classic elevator. We have stayed there many times.
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Mark Lipton » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:40 pm

Frank,
One thing SF really excels in (it's not alone in this regard) is first class Italian cooking. Delfina, A16 and Perbacco are all very good and I've heard off-scale things about La Ciccia (Sardinian, great little wine list) and Quince. Bar Tartine has been quite uneven in my experience and seems to have more than normal turnover in chefs, but when it's on it's very good. Like Dale, my meal at Manresa is one of my top dining experiences and shouldn't be missed.

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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Cynthia Wenslow » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:36 pm

In Yountville stop into Mustards Grill and order the onion rings served with house made apple ketchup. Last time we were there we had them with a Simonsig Chenin Blanc.

Image
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by wnissen » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:38 am

Just tried Restaurant Jeanne d'Arc and can confirm both resolutely traditional cooking and convivial atmosphere. Tables are close together, really, really cute interior, and I am pleased to say they now routinely make the Grand Marnier soufflé in single servings.
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Max Hauser » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:43 pm

Howdy. This is a little long, spun off from recent email with Frank, a longtime pen-pal. To support his introduction to this region and his restaurant planning, I promised Frank some nutshell orientation information (history/geography) and it includes a few restaurants further down. I'm posting it here in case of wider interest. I'm a student of both food and local history, and have useful books, acquaintance with Bay Area food and wine innovators way beyond what I cite online, and my ancestors have been in the SF region since Civil-War times.

Region history:

SF itself grew fast from 1848 for obvious reasons (gold), and for about 75 years was the main port and urban center on North America's Pacific coast. Coastal cities now much larger are also younger: Los Angeles surpassed SF's population only in the 19-teens. Census data show SF's population from 1900 to 2000 roughly doubling (from 343,000 in 1900), while LA's population over the same century grew by 132:1. A basic reason is SF's land area is constrained at the tip of a peninsula. Bay Area (BA) population grew instead in adjacent subregions, south on the peninsula and Santa Clara Valley, north in hilly Marin County across the Golden Gate, and east in the long region adjacent the bay, backed by hills, where Oakland, later Berkeley and other cities now are. "Suburbs" doesn't well describe the outer regions that developed dense population centers too; they themselves have classic suburbs. North and East-Bay population centers communicated to SF by ferry until two vast bridges connected them in the 1930s.

Modern restaurant history:

In my grandparents' and even parents' time, SF proper supplied a de-facto downtown for the whole region, and people went "to the City" for much special-occasion dining. I heard about Old-Guard high-end restaurants (The Blue Fox, La Bourguignonne, L'Etoile, L'Orangerie, and of course Ernie's*) in the 1970s when Jack Shelton's Private Dining Guide advised people (Robert Finigan later bought the publication, focusing then on wine IIRC). Alas I didn't experience those restaurants, only the offbeat SF Trader Vic's on Cosmo Court.

The geographical shift, of high-end restaurants tending to open outside SF, developed in the 1960s. Restaurants widely known for "destination" appeal first became prominent in the East Bay; the North Bay since became even more famous for them; most recently the South Bay arrived on the gastronomic map (no less than the very SF-centric San Francisco Chronicle proclaimed this so, a few years back). Growing up in the East Bay I witnessed early examples first-hand. Too young to experience Hank Rubin and Narsai David's seminal Potluck in the 1960s, I did manage good 1970s meals at two immediate successors, Narsai's and Chez Panisse. (Panisse opened near my family home when I was a teenager.)

Bay Area restaurants today:

Despite consisting mostly of distinct self-contained neighborhoods,** SF itself overall retains a more metropolitan "feel" than nearby cities. It has the highest restaurant density, and a demographic that eats out a lot. Often, at modern popular restaurants like A16, I notice a busy sophisticated crowd, different from restaurant crowds elsewhere in the BA. There's even a pool of skilled career restaurant servers unlike any elsewhere in the region. Here in silicon valley, as realtors write their newspaper articles predicting effects on the real-estate market of the Next Big IPO (currently Facebook), they always mention that young high-tech workers who can afford it prefer to live in The City even if it means 30-40 miles of commute down the Peninsula by train or car.

I notice nowadays the BA restaurants that get "buzz" occupy three groups. Modest unique neighborhood places (as in any region). High-end destination places with Michelin stars, which today tend toward "new international" cuisine, just as 50 years ago high-end restaurants tended toward Guide-Culinaire French. People who pay attention to this and travel for food often comment how similar today are the kitchen sensibilities, even particular dishes that become fashionable, in prominent high-end restaurants whether in major US food cities or Europe. I know many such around the Bay Area. There are clear exceptions: SF's Acquerello comes to mind (though I haven't been there in a few years).

A third and IMO interesting category was already well illustrated by Mark Lipton: Restaurants of strong kitchen integrity offering regional European or Asian cuisines, with skilled cooks from those regions. In SF, many well-known ones, like Delfina, do regional Italian cuisines. These places are cheaper than the high-profile high-end. They get constant buzz on the Bay Area Chowhound board. (Which is dominated by a modest population of regular posters, and gets incessant queries of a type that annoy the regulars -- like "Top 10 restaurants in SF today?" or "24 hours in SF, where should I eat?" from people who didn't bother to read the board history and the answers to the 2000 previous similar queries.)

Footnotes:

* Ernie's was immortalized in Alfred Hitchcock's unique 1958 movie Vertigo. A point of extreme Bay Area restaurant trivia (I'll elaborate only by email, but you should be able to find this info): Ernie's last chef was also, I believe, the first one US-born; anyway he currently has a Bay Area restaurant, mentioned earlier in this thread. Frank and Mark will certainly know the one I mean, and I trust them to keep it to themselves!

** It doesn't get as much buzz for Chinese food as in the past, since newer waves of immigrants spread over the whole region; but SF's Chinatown developed during the transcontinental railroad project 140 years ago and has traditionally had the largest expat Chinese community in the Americas (chiefly from south China). Experts trace some common US terms for Chinese cooking ("stir-fry," "pot-sticker," etc.) to Y. R. Chao, distinguished professor of Chinese in Berkeley's Oriental Languages department many decades ago.
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Frank Deis » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:19 pm

I appreciate all of the replies, and especially Max's detailed and interesting treatise. :D

I had an ancestor, Thomas Hampton Summy, who struck gold in SF in 1849. But he then went back to Illinois and made investments and gave each of his children a farm when they married. So I was very indirectly touched by the gold rush... My wife had relatives who lived on Nob Hill around the time of the earthquake. Really though it's remarkable how little connection we have with California.

I think Chez Panisse must have been exciting as a young restaurant. Nowadays the idea of putting stuff into your salad that you picked in the back yard has become so commonplace that it's no longer surprising. Locavores are everywhere!

At any rate there are examples of many kinds of restaurants that I will be interested in trying, including Jeanne d'Arc. Probably most of you heard about the closing of Sam Wo, which was famous for "the world's rudest waiter"! I'm sure there are other quaint Chinese places in Chinatown, probably with waiters who are nearly as rude. We'll see.

Anyway thanks to all, and keep it coming please!
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Max Hauser » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:24 am

Frank Deis wrote:I think Chez Panisse must have been exciting as a young restaurant. Nowadays the idea of putting stuff into your salad that you picked in the back yard has become so commonplace that it's no longer surprising. Locavores are everywhere!

You nailed it. Some newcomers today find Panisse reminding them of familiar current restaurants that rely on fresh seasonal local ingredients. (Not always realizing that Panisse is one reason why those restaurants do so.)

More precisely the idea of reliance on fresh seasonal produce is once again commonplace, as it was for most of US cooking and restaurant history until around the 2nd half of the 20th century. (John and Karen Hess wryly showed that another author's trumpeted "discovery" of the range of herbs useful in salads had been mainstream public information for centuries; Root and de Rochemont remarked that until the 1900s Americans didn't work at getting farm products because they mostly lived on farms, or near them). Panisse opened 1971-- by wide evidence an approximate low point of US cooking history via crass merchandising, convenience foods, restaurant chains, and the degeneration of cookbooks. It was the very same era when informed writers like Evan Jones, Root and de Rochemont, and the Hesses published appalled examinations of what had happened to US food sensibilities, and 26-year-old Frances Moore Lappé (like the child noting the emperor's nakedness) begged to suggest that eating hamburgers constantly was not, after all, necessary, or agriculturally efficient, and might conceivably even be unhealthy.


Frank, your full topic title here recalled some history I omitted earlier. Before the 1980s, Napa-county "wine country" was not on tourist radar, as now. Its winemakers were mavericks, corporate investment in its winemaking was not yet large, nouveaux-riches didn't yet think of building flashy villas there ("tourists who remained" in the Napa-county locals' wry term), and wine geeks -- like y'all reading this forum -- were adventurers who had to track down winemakers, who in turn might be flattered by the attention and invite the visitors in for some tastes. And there was "nowhere to stop to eat." I recall the attention when notable restaurants actually began opening there 30 years ago, I probably have those articles on file. Sonoma County had more towns and restaurants than heavily agricultural Napa County, but they weren't destination restaurants. Change accelerated after '94 when Thos. Keller (the second important Bay Area chef Keller, after Hubert) took over the French Laundry. A few years ago, the Russian-River town of Healdsburg (Sonoma County) even reinvented itself for tourism, creating a luxurious neo-traditional downtown with shops, tasting rooms and restaurants. Important innovative destination restaurants are in such places today, but it's all fairly new. 20 years ago when thousands locally discussed these topics on the Internet newsgroups like ba.food, most now-prominent Bay Area restaurants didn't exist.
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Frank Deis » Tue May 15, 2012 9:12 pm

OK, it's shaping up. Our dinner reservations are at Aziza, Manresa, and Bouchon. I think we'll go to the French restaurant in the hotel in SF as well. Jeanne d'Arc.

Plus various Chinese, Japanese, Mexican etc.

Most interesting hotels are at Pescadero Creek (south) and Point Reyes Station (north).

I am trying to decide if I need to have 2 nights in Monterey -- since Louise is interested in the aquarium and there is other stuff to see there. That subtracts a night in SF. And I'm trying to decide if we can go for an expensive place in St Helena (they are ALL expensive) -- the Wine Country Inn. It is in striking distance of Yountville, where we'll have Louise's birthday dinner. When we have vacations in June they often include her birthday.

http://www.winecountryinn.com/

My theory is that we can do a couple of nights there and then find a cheaper place down in Napa (there ARE a couple of cheaper places in Napa).

Anyway thanks for all the help guys. Still listening.
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by wnissen » Tue May 15, 2012 11:29 pm

Oh, one last place, right across the street from Jeanne d'Arc (which is right next door to a gay nude show, for what that's worth). Sons and Daughters. Highly modern, young but expert staff. I really liked the red pepper cake, foie gras, the fish treatments are really perfect. Very reasonably priced for the quality. Reservations essential, and they have no bar area to wait in. In fact, I think anyone would be stunned at the size of the kitchen.
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Re: Restaurants, SFO, Napa Sonoma

by Max Hauser » Wed May 16, 2012 1:10 pm

I am trying to decide if I need to have 2 nights in Monterey -- since Louise is interested in the aquarium and there is other stuff to see there.

I used to hang out in Monterey a bit, and once taught a technical "short course" there. Last experience was a few years back, but FYI:

Steinbeck's "cannery row" became a vacation and tourist area, especially with the massive improvements to the Aquarium organized several years back (by David Packard's daughter). Near the Aquarium and piers, all within short walk, bristle a cluster of independent restaurants, some of which have been quite good, reminding me vaguely of the clusters in New Orleans. I see online that Cafe Fina (47 Fisherman's Wharf) is still there; that was a regular stop (modern Italian and seafood).

A block or two from there is a "destination" restaurant, the Sardine Factory, long an underground favorite of Burgundy afficionados in particular, due to a staggering wine inventory accumulated by the 1990s, sold at prices that didn't rise much over time. 10 years ago, Dujac Bonnes-Mares or Clos de la Roche from good years like 85, 89, 93 could be had there for old-fashioned prices (under $100) -- meriting a detour, as one guidebook puts it. Such a gem of a list that it didn't do to spill the beans publicly online. But it was the legacy of a longtime wine buyer who moved on, and I don't know what today's inventory looks like.
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