The plastics problem

[Jenise]

Reading Nicholas Kristof's excellent op-ed piece last week about the links between the food we eat and cancer, I was struck by the fact that I've stuck my head in the ground re the plastics issue. I honestly don't know if the stuff I use for storage, and sometimes nuke food in, is the safe plastic or not. I've worked out that there's a number on the bottom of some of my containers that tells me what it's made out of, but where's the key? How do I know if a '7' is good or bad?

[Jenise]

Oh great, just found this:

In recent studies, it has been found the certain plastic reusable bottles may be a cancer risk. The risk is due to a chemical called BPA (Bisphenol A) that can be released when the bottle is washed, heated, and/or re-used. This impacts adults as well as children. Here are a very ways to limit the risk of BPA in plastic bottles:

Look for "BPA-free" claims on toys, baby bottles and containers. A lot of companies are starting to roll out BPA free baby bottles, bottle liners, and re-usable containers.

Avoid polycarbonate and PVC (polyvinyl chloride) plastics, both of which contain BPA. At the bottom of the plastic, there should be a recylcing code. Anything with code 7 is at risk.

Jenise,
BPA is the current source of concern and is the basic constituent of polycarbonate resins (these are the very hard, very clear plastics used to make cups, glasses, and some baby bottles) and also as a plasticizer in polyurethane resins, which are used as the liners in most canned foods, and PVC, used in some plastic wraps. Ziploc bags are polyethylene, as is most plastic wrap these days, and are free of BPA. Type 7 plastics is a catch-all for all the other polymers that aren't in types 1-6, so not all type 7 plastics contain BPA.

Mark Lipton

[Jenise]

Mark, I've just checked the Rubbermaid website and found that in March this year they introduced a new Premier line of container that's BPA-free (red lids) and which quite obviously replaces the Premier line I have (black lids). So I called the Customer Service number and yes, they confirmed with a surprisingly defensive belligerence unbefitting of a first answer to a first, polite question, mine contain BPA. "So I have to replace all 20 of these I bought, at some expense, just barely a year ago. Are you offering coupons to help someone in my situation?", I asked. "No, they are perfectly safe. The FDA has tested our products and they are all safe to use. There are no recalls. If you want to replace them that's YOUR perogative, but the FDA says they're safe." "Yet you're replacing the line with bpa-free products." "Yes, but that's because of high demand by people WHO DON'T REALIZE OUR PRODUCTS ARE SAFE. If the products weren't, the FDA would have started a recall. But they didn't, so they're SAFE." To which I said something about conjugal visits to the FDA by Rubbermaid lobbyists, and things devolved quite rapidly from there.

So I'm on my own. Love the containers, though, best I've ever had. I threw everything else I had laying around (a motley collection, like most people's, purchased one or two at a time over a long period) away so I could standardize on this one product. Great sizes, great look, intelligent design. The lids actually stack too, and interlock so you don't have all these lids flopping about.

I got tired of all the confusion about which plastic was good or bad. Over the past 18 months, I have replaced most of my plastic with glass containers and am loving it. They go into the dishwasher, come out sparkling, I can reheat my food in them, and I love the way the glass looks in my refer. I have kept some of my large plastic Tupperware used for transportation, or storing large quantities of leftover food until the next day. The only down side to the glass is that, at first, is was slick when wet, but we have adjusted to that. I had so many Rubber maid and Tupperware pieces that were actually flaking off layers of plastic, stained from red sauces, and had cracked lids. That is all gone now and I am very satisfied with glass. I suppose any danger done to our bodies has been done, but I'm giving it one last shot.

Think of it this way, Jenise: cooking meats on a grill allegedly produces carcinogenic compounds in the charred bits. There have been SO MANY news reports about food items that if you obey all the warnings, you'll starve. I figure the odds are stacked against me anyway, so I eat what I want (within reason) and don't worry so much about it. I do microwave at home with waxed paper iso saran wrap or Tupperware & Rubbermaid lids, though.

A question for Mark - we don't reheat in plastic - we always use glass or pyrex and paper towels to cover etc.

But what we do is store stuff in the fridge and freezer in hard plastic - often takeaway containers. How big are the risks there?

Thanks, Celia

Another question: How strong is the link between BPA and negative health effects? I'm not saying one should be consuming the stuff and I know how ubiquitous it's become. I think it's pretty well established that we all have detectible levels floating around in us. But the question remains, has any strong link been shown between BPA consumption and cancer or any other health problem?

[Jenise]

Define "strong". As a scientist, you'd be able to evaluate the available data better than I. But there are a ton of studies listed on Wikipedia, and it seems fairly clear that the susceptibility of infants is a big issue and the effect on adults less certain in significance but probable. At the very least, it's a chemical, and we know that greater chemical exposure means greater risk of cancer.

It was Nicholas Kristof's op-ed piece last week in the NYT that got me thinking more seriously about all this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/06/opinion/06kristof.html

Enough studies have been done to convince me that BPA ain't good for you. I look for the PET plastics. And have pretty much followed the guidelines he mentions near the end of the article for decades.

These should have a number "1" on the bottom of the container.

Dosen't the SousVide cooking method use plastic as well - at elevated temps for long periods of time? With all the positive talk about SousVide no one has mentioned this as a possible downside.

Ce - the risk of BPA exposure from cold storage in plastic is very low, unless you leave the food in contact with the plastic for a long time (months, perhaps).

Mike - the evidence against BPA is fairly strong now. Even my industry rag (Chemical and Engineering News), never one to rush to criticize a chemical product, has run a long article on the evidence that BPA is estrogenic. Health effects have been demonstrated in frogs, fish, mice and rats. All the best evidence suggests that babies and pregnant women should avoid exposure and that children should have very limited exposure. The biggest sources of BPA right now are plastic liners of canned food, plastic water bottles and prepackaged, microwavable foods.

Mark Lipton

1. Most brands of the following list contain carcinogenic agents:

Wine (in the form of tannic acid)
Deodorants
Soap bars
Toothpaste
Hair Spray
Detergents
Deodorants
Well Cooked Meat
Raw Meat
Cigarettes
Cigarette Smoke
Coffee
Tea
Herbal Teas
Dish Soaps
Toilet Cleaning Agents
Water that makes its way through metal, plastic or clay pipes

2. All of the above (and indeed many plastics and other chemicals) have the potential to harm us

3. That something has the potential to harm us does not mean that it [u]will[/] harm us

4. I refuse to believe that everything raised organically will be better for me or for the other billions of people on the planet. With regard specifically to food products, I will continue to seek out and purchase those things I consider highest in quality and taste and not those that are said to be "good for me". And I absolutely refuse to give up bacon and French fries.

5. Furthermore, I refuse to become so paranoid in my fear of everyday life that I will stop bathing, drinking water, eating meat, using toothpaste, washing my dishes, cleaning my toilet, drinking coffee or tea.* I will also continue the super-dangerous activities of crossing from one side of the street to the other, flying on airplanes or driving in automobiles. It is true that I shall continue to "look both ways" before crossing the street. I will also take the "usual precautions" in selecting those products I purchase and use.

Thus spake ye faithful curmudgeon
Rogov


*With regard to what we take into our body, the one thing with which I will agree fully is that any person who smokes more than 3 – 4 cigarettes a day, no matter how much he/she enjoys cigarettes is behaving foolishly.

[Jenise]

That something has the potential to harm us does not mean that it [u]will[/] harm us

No, or that when you get cancer you know exactly which thing it is that got you. But there is no doubt that the chances are much much greater today than they were even 20 years ago that you'll get cancer, and that you've been feeding the danger to yourself via the things on that list. Whether or not moderating or ceasing your exposure to any of them will make a difference is your option to evaluate or ignore. But to refer, by implication, to anyone who chooses otherwise--say, me--as 'paranoid' is recklessly judgemental.

For anyone with a higher than usual risk or those already living with the threat of cancer, any single thing you can do to stave off the day in which it carries you or someone you love dearly away is a day better spent than a day spent just sitting there waiting. Believe me, I know.

Ce - the risk of BPA exposure from cold storage in plastic is very low, unless you leave the food in contact with the plastic for a long time (months, perhaps).

Mike - the evidence against BPA is fairly strong now. Even my industry rag (Chemical and Engineering News), never one to rush to criticize a chemical product, has run a long article on the evidence that BPA is estrogenic. Health effects have been demonstrated in frogs, fish, mice and rats. All the best evidence suggests that babies and pregnant women should avoid exposure and that children should have very limited exposure. The biggest sources of BPA right now are plastic liners of canned food, plastic water bottles and prepackaged, microwavable foods.

Mark Lipton

That was my impression - that the bulk of the problems appear to be during gestation and in very young children.

Not that one shouldn't stay away from it when one is older, mind you. I doubt that it could possibly be good for you. It will be interesting to see what happens with this. I just hope the BPA doesn't end up getting replaced by something worse.

[Jenise]

Dosen't the SousVide cooking method use plastic as well - at elevated temps for long periods of time? With all the positive talk about SousVide no one has mentioned this as a possible downside.

The type of plastic used in that method is like Zip-loc bags which are, as Mark mentions, polycarbonate, so not containing the pesky bpa and so far as anyone knows, safe.

Dosen't the SousVide cooking method use plastic as well - at elevated temps for long periods of time? With all the positive talk about SousVide no one has mentioned this as a possible downside.

The type of plastic used in that method is like Zip-loc bags which are, as Mark mentions, polycarbonate, so not containing the pesky bpa and so far as anyone knows, safe.

No, not polycarbonate (which is a polymer composed of BPA) but polyethylene, a polymer that needs no plasticization to make it plastic

Mark Lipton

[Jenise]

No, not polycarbonate (which is a polymer composed of BPA) but polyethylene, a polymer that needs no plasticization to make it plastic

Mark Lipton

My turn to make a mistake. And I actually know something about polyethylene, as my husband built the first polyethylene plant on the west coast--had lots of examples of what it could do running around here for awhile.

[Jenise]

Think of it this way, Jenise: cooking meats on a grill allegedly produces carcinogenic compounds in the charred bits. There have been SO MANY news reports about food items that if you obey all the warnings, you'll starve. I figure the odds are stacked against me anyway, so I eat what I want (within reason) and don't worry so much about it. I do microwave at home with waxed paper iso saran wrap or Tupperware & Rubbermaid lids, though.

I have to admit I feel the same way about those odds you mention. That is, it's probably too late and we're toast, and I honestly don't have it in me to be radical about anything. But ignoring the easy stuff is another kind of folly, so the bowls are gonna go--as soon as I finish the last night's leftover spinach out of one for my lunch, that is.

Ce - the risk of BPA exposure from cold storage in plastic is very low, unless you leave the food in contact with the plastic for a long time (months, perhaps).

Mark Lipton

Thanks Mark!

Jenise, Hi....

But there is no doubt that the chances are much much greater today than they were even 20 years ago that you'll get cancer, and that you've been feeding the danger to yourself via the things on that list.

Indeed true but the chances are even higher than they were 100 or 300 years ago and that partly because in many parts of society people live longer than earlier. What that means is that fewer people developed cancer in the past because they did not live long enough and died of other diseases (e.g. tuberculosis, yellow fever, malaria, the flu, etc). Whether we can blame the increase in cancer on environmental factors or simply because of that longer lifespan is not really known.

Whether or not moderating or ceasing your exposure to any of them will make a difference is your option to evaluate or ignore. But to refer, by implication, to anyone who chooses otherwise--say, me--as 'paranoid' is recklessly judgemental.

I am the first to admit that even paranoids have real enemies. Truth though is that I do see too much of what I consider hysteria in modern society - that relating not only to health and well being but to political correctness, green footsteps, and the like. I do agree that I am being judgemental. Whether that is reckless or not......????

Best
Rogov

[Jenise]

Whether we can blame the increase in cancer on environmental factors or simply because of that longer lifespan is not really known.

You're certainly right about the longer lifespan effect over centuries, but word from the trenches seems quite certain that cancer is far more common than it used to be and the rate of affliction among younger persons is the evidence. Had a conversation about this recently with an oncologist who is booked solid out four months. Colon cancer, he cited for instance, has become much more common than it used to be. As well, where 20 years ago it was considered pretty much an old man disease in that he rarely saw a patient who wasn't male or under 40 with that disease, he now sees many patients, both sexes, and has a startling number of patients under 30. His newest patient with that is just 17. He's also treating a girl only age 14 with breast cancer. He didn't start out from that point of view but he is now certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the vast array of chemicals we have convenienced into every part of our lives, in particular our food supply, are to blame. And that we in populations with the most 'improvements' are the most affected.

Truth though is that I do see too much of what I consider hysteria in modern society -

We all do. It's there and it's annoying. But that doesn't mean it's an act of paranoia to take the easiest precautions or even forego some pleasures in order to buy some time. You know, you just have to pick your fights.

Me? I'll continue driving around on local streets without a seatbelt on most of the time because I just hate hate hate wearing one and you know what you can do with your statistics , but I'll still throw away my plastic.

Me? I'll continue driving around on local streets without a seatbelt on most of the time because I just hate hate hate wearing one and you know what you can do with your statistics ...

You'd be arrested here. Pete and I have both been in serious car accidents where both of us would be dead but for seatbelts. My accident occurred less than half a mile from home.

Me? I'll continue driving around on local streets without a seatbelt on most of the time because I just hate hate hate wearing one and you know what you can do with your statistics ...

You'd be arrested here. Pete and I have both been in serious car accidents where both of us would be dead but for seatbelts. My accident occurred less than half a mile from home.

I'm with you, Babe. I got a fractured sternum in an accident. Air bag didn't open. Only thing that saved me was the seat belt.