Throwing out food

In reading a different thread there was a reference to people throwing out items a day after "the date" on their container (milk, cream etc)

2 questions:

1) what is the technical source of the date? IS it the gov't, the producer etc

2) what does it mean? "Better" by that date ? "Fatal" after that date?

HAve to admit we toss a fair amount of dairy products on that basis - but maybe we shouldn't.

And non dairy products also usually have more extended "use by" dates - do you follow? does it matter?

Here is a handy guidethat might help sort through some of this. You can also search the USDA database for federal guidelines for retailers and consumers.

[Jenise]

John, I've had stuff that went south before the expiration date, and stuff that was obviously fine afterward. I use the expiration date more as a buying guide--once home, it all has to pass the sniff test. My nose is better than any stranger's advance expectations.

Like Jenise, I use the sniff test for milk. However, if it's just souring and starting to curdle, I use it up in pancakes or biscuits, like my mother always did. Sometimes I purposely sour and curdle fresh milk with lemon juice or vinegar, just for that purpose.

Products don't turn toxic the day after the expiration. Some leeway is built-in. I've bought plenty of food nearing its date at a considerable savings. Do you throw away your aspirin the day it expires?

Products don't turn toxic the day after the expiration. Some leeway is built-in. I've bought plenty of food nearing its date at a considerable savings. Do you throw away your aspirin the day it expires?

I have the same viewpoint. I figure that manufacturers are using some amount of statistical analysis to determine those expiration dates. And that the probablility of the product being bad at that date is low. And like Jenise says, the nose knows!!!

Larry,

Would you eat sushi that was past the expiration date?

John, I've had stuff that went south before the expiration date, and stuff that was obviously fine afterward. I use the expiration date more as a buying guide--once home, it all has to pass the sniff test. My nose is better than any stranger's advance expectations.

Same with me. And in some cases (I'm sure not in the places you shop) the expiration date may not even mean much because the item (meat, for example) may have expired and been repackaged with a new expiration date further in the future.

We use expiration dates only on the buying side -- as far out as possible, to negotiate lower prices if past due.

The food itself tells us whether it's edible, and two dogs seal the deal here.

[Jenise]

We use expiration dates only on the buying side -- as far out as possible, to negotiate lower prices if past due.

The food itself tells us whether it's edible, and two dogs seal the deal here.

So Clive has a new brother or sister now? Tell!

I think you do what feels comfortable for you. And, I am always mindful that botulism is odorless and tasteless -- but lethal! Just a thought.

Larry, Would you eat sushi that was past the expiration date?

Not answering for Larry, of course, but I would and do. We had an interesting debate about why fish smell -- I've bought the argument that certain microorganisms give off the rotten smell to keep older fish for themselves. Many fish taste better "riper" in my experience.

Of course, I grew up considering lutefiske a great delicacy.

Jo Ann, is there any evidence that botulism is caused by eating out of date foods? The CDC site credits the few US food borne cases primarily to home canned foods. I would think that infected food would be infected from the get go and not pick it up over time. http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/dfbmd/disease ... _gi.html#1

Jenise, we have another Kasia, another GPS, beautiful, but with quite a different personality than Kasia. [Odd, we both know which Kasia the other person is talking about -- we never call the new one Kasia Two, for example.]

I'll post a picture soon; in the meantime, I'm learning how to walk them at the same time. Hilarious, really, and they are sometimes frustrated with my inability to comprehend their training methods.

I think you do what feels comfortable for you. And, I am always mindful that botulism is odorless and tasteless -- but lethal! Just a thought.

The danger of botulism is more a matter of packaging than expiration date.

The bacterium Clostridium botulinum is one of a group of bacteria that produce a toxin that is extremely toxic to humans (although the bacteria themselves are harmless). The bacteria responsible for tetanus and gas gangrene are also Clostridia. All these bacteria are ubiquitous and normal soil bacteria. They all produce spores that are virtually indestructible. The good news is that they cannot tolerate either oxygen or acidic environments.

The botulism danger occurs when you have a foodstuff that is not acidic and protected from atmospheric oxygen. The bacterial spores (which are everywhere and unavoidable) can grow and produce their toxin under these conditions. When we eat the food, even though the bacteria may be long gone toxin can remain and can cause severe paralysis even in trace amounts.

The canning process sets up ideal conditions for C. botulinum to grow: boiling the containers drives off the oxygen, and then the contents are sealed in. Acidic canned goods, such as tomatoes and most fruit, are safe because of the acidity. Non-acidic canned goods present a problem. Items such as whole or chopped garlic stored in oil also are hazardous because they're not acidic and the oil seals them from atmospheric oxygen.

This is why it's dangerous to use canned goods where the can is bulging or where there is positive gas pressure inside the container when you open it. The gas pressure is a sign that bacteria (possibly C. botulinum) have been at work in the container.

The bacterial spoilage might happen well before the "sell-by" or "expiration" date, which is why you can't go by the date to guard against botulism. The best guidelines are to avoid non-acidic items packaged without exposure to air (e.g. the aforementioned garlic cloves), and never to use any canned goods where gas pressure indicates fermentation may have taken place under anaerobic conditions.

-Paul W.

I once read an account of a tropical bird that harbored a certain bacteria on its skin, which caused an incredible stink within minutes of the bird's death. The natives advice for eating it? Locate the bird, then build a fire under a pot of water directly under the bird. When the water boiled, dart the bird so that it fell dead into the water. Only that method would prevent the stink.

And the bird is stupid enough to sit there while the hunters build a fire under it?

-Paul W.

If it were roosting, maybe. Market hunters used to knock passenger pigeons off roosting limbs with sticks.

The interesting thing about the date on milk is that it's only good for that long if the milk is unopened. M. Pasteur taught us that once you let bacteria fall into a container, all bets are off.

On the flip side, sometimes if you get an unusually pure batch of product, it will last forever. My last carton of ultra-pasteurized cream lasted three months past the sell-by date, and I discarded it because the milkfat was going rancid, not spoiling. The nose knows.

Walt

Larry,

Would you eat sushi that was past the expiration date?

Dave, I will have to check to even see if sushi even has a best by date" And, as much as I suspect Jenise will cringe at me agreeing with her, I use the sniff test too. I often find that things will go several days, maybe up to a week depending on the item, past the best by date.

Larry,

Would you eat sushi that was past the expiration date?

No. And you wouldn't either. Take microbiology and you wouldn't eat the stuff in the first place.

I guess I'll have to throw out the loaf of bread that expires today.

In reading a different thread there was a reference to people throwing out items a day after "the date" on their container (milk, cream etc)

2 questions:

1) what is the technical source of the date? IS it the gov't, the producer etc

2) what does it mean? "Better" by that date ? "Fatal" after that date?

HAve to admit we toss a fair amount of dairy products on that basis - but maybe we shouldn't.

And non dairy products also usually have more extended "use by" dates - do you follow? does it matter?

John, I Always check the "best by date" but I am not religious about using things befor that date. I usually take it with a grain of salt, as we all know the manufacturer does alway Cover the corporate a$$. If it smell ok, it is ok.

We used to waste a lot of cream, but now we don't throw away any, since the two Bobs taught me to use it for making butter.

Celia

There has not been any talk about herbs and spices. We keep ours in dark bottles in dark places, but we have problems with one and that is Old Bay Seasoning. I have no idea why, but within six months of the expiration date on the can it loses all its omph.

I only use fresh herbs so that is not an issue in my house. Items like peppercorns, Chinese Five Spice, smoked paprika, etc. I keep in the freezer and they hold up quite well.

Jenise, we have another Kasia, another GPS, beautiful, but with quite a different personality than Kasia. [Odd, we both know which Kasia the other person is talking about -- we never call the new one Kasia Two, for example.]

I'll post a picture soon; in the meantime, I'm learning how to walk them at the same time. Hilarious, really, and they are sometimes frustrated with my inability to comprehend their training methods.

Bob, I've been MIA from the boards for awhile and just saw you and Janet have a new dog. Congratulations! You've probably already found out how fun it is to have a "big" and a "little." Looking forward to seeing a photo.