How do you knead?

A question for those of you who bake your own bread/pizza/sweet doughs - I'm curious - how do you knead your dough? I used to own a breadmaker years ago, but found that after a while, we just stopped using it. Now when I make doughs (be it pizza, sourdough or sweet), I always knead by hand. Not saying it's better, but it's just the way I do it, and I love it - I find it much easier than washing up a mixing bowl and a dough hook.

I used to knead "English" style - ie. pushing the dough away with the heel of my palm, and then folding it in and flipping it over. Now I knead "French" style - slapping the bottom of the dough onto the bench and folding it, as shown in this YouTube clip

How do you do it?

I used to knead pizza dough by hand, but the KitchenAid has taken over. Since we use a very slack dough for pizza, it's a better option anyway. For pasta dough, I still do it by hand because it's so stiff.

I used to knead "English" style - ie. pushing the dough away with the heel of my palm, and then folding it in and flipping it over. Now I knead "French" style - slapping the bottom of the dough onto the bench and folding it, as shown in this YouTube clip

Celia, I've found a combination of the two works best for me. Nobody can accuse me of being too Anglo- or Franco-philly.

I'm pretty good at dough abuse.

I set the bread machine for "Dough".

Kithcenaid and dough hook for me, too...hook and bowl go right into dishwasher...

It depends. If (a) I need the exercise or (b) have a lot of fruit and/or nuts to knead in, I do it by hand. Otherwise, use the KitchenAid and dough hook.

In my idealistic youth, I kneaded everything by hand, the way my grandmother taught me to. However, I now have nerve damage in my hands, so I do everything in the Kitchen Aid. That was the best gift I've ever purchased for myself!

On an allied topic, having a food processor in the combined household has ramped up my pie making again. It was very difficult for me to make crust by hand, but now it's a snap.

[David M. Bueker]

It's a neat method on the video, but the noise would drive me batty.

Cynthia,
Please tell us your secret for a tender flaky pie crust via processor. I've tried and tried but it is frequently brittle.

I use the English knead for bread dough but will give the French method a go.

It's a neat method on the video, but the noise would drive me batty.

Dave, it IS pretty loud, but it has a couple of distinct advantages. Firstly, it's a really good method for short people, who can't put their whole shoulder behind the heel of their palm in the traditional method (ergo, it's good for kids as well). Secondly, it lets you knead very wet doughs by hand - something you can't really do the other way. I've hand kneaded doughs above 80% hydration, with great success (have a batch of ciabattas in the oven as we speak). Having said that, the "French" method won't handle something really heavy like bagel dough - that I have to knead the old way.

Celia, I've found a combination of the two works best for me. Nobody can accuse me of being too Anglo- or Franco-philly.

I'm pretty good at dough abuse.

I'll bet..

My kneading is mostly limited to pasta making these days, though Andrew expressed an interest in making bread today, so we made two baguettes for dinner and gave one away to our neighbors. I knead exclusively by hand, using what I now understand to be the English method (thank you very much for this enlightening distinction, Ce). It works for me because: a) I ain't short and b) it's very therapeutic to work out my agressions on an inanimate ball of gluten and water. I have on my own, though, incorporated some of the French approach into my kneading technique -- it seems pretty intuitive to me.

Mark Lipton

Method? I just grab and squeeze the same as I do with sausage. When bread dough begins to relax, or feel relaxed to me, the kneader, it’s time to move to the next step. The baguettes are medium-light textured and I (almost!) never get big holes

I knead exclusively by hand, using what I now understand to be the English method (thank you very much for this enlightening distinction, Ce).

Mark Lipton

Ok, I made the distinction up because I've watched Jamie Oliver knead one way, and Richard Bertinet and the other French baker knead the other. So I may have been stereotyping just the teeniest bit..

Michael, big holes are the holy grail for some sourdough bakers! You should see the discussion on the sourdough forum about it...

Depends what I'm making. For pizza bases, pasta and wholemeal breads I go "English" but for white breads (esp. pain de campagne style, baguette, sourdough) I go French these days. I totally agree that big holes (combined with the light yet chewy texture, and real flavour) are the holy grail of the latter breads; and it's not easy - depends on the flour so much too.

Depends what I'm making. For pizza bases, pasta and wholemeal breads I go "English" but for white breads (esp. pain de campagne style, baguette, sourdough) I go French these days. I totally agree that big holes (combined with the light yet chewy texture, and real flavour) are the holy grail of the latter breads; and it's not easy - depends on the flour so much too.

When I do the "no-knead" bread I get very large holes and a great texture. I've even used different flours and gotten good results. This, of course, goes against everything I was ever taught. In my 22 years of teaching I may have made a bread that was not kneaded in a mixer a half-dozen times.

I grew up working as a teenager in my stepfather's Jewish bakery. The bakers would knead and knead and knead - they had forearms like Popeye.

Whenever I used the French style of slapping dough on the counter, Shadow the Wondermutt (in the avatar) would slink off into another room, thinking his boss was angry at him.

[Jenise]

Celia, I probably have a bit of carpal tunnel, so kneading isn't all that comfortable to me. Once I got a Kitchen Aid, my kneading days were over. And now that I've discovered no-knead bread, the Kitchen Aid doesn't even get used as often as it used to.

I like the No-Knead bread, Jenise, but taking the blazing hot pot out of the oven to toss the bread into scares the heebies out of me. I'm klutzy at the best of times! And with the recipes I use, I've found I get as good if not better a result from using the pizza stones.

I blew up my mother's Kenwood kneading brioche, and have never tried a dough in one again. We had a breadmaker for years, but after a while I found all the loaves were the same, and it wasn't conducive to making the crusty, heavy breads that I was after. I guess I could have kept it just for kneading (I have a friend who kneads all her pizza doughs in her breadmaker), but it took up so much room, plus I accidentally poured all the measured liquids into it one day....before I put the metal pan in. The electrical circuits didn't appreciate it.

I like the No-Knead bread, Jenise, but taking the blazing hot pot out of the oven to toss the bread into scares the heebies out of me. I'm klutzy at the best of times! And with the recipes I use, I've found I get as good if not better a result from using the pizza stones.

I just made a depressing discovery when making bread with Andrew last weekend. My old, tried and true baking stone no longer fits easily into my shiny, "new" convection oven because the fan assembly in back has reduced the depth of the oven compartment to a cm or two less than the diameter of the stone. I was able to fudge it by placing the stone on the lowest shelf where it lies beneath the fan and allows the door to almost shut tightly, but I'm afraid that I'll either have to get another stone or another oven if I want to start baking seriously again.

Mark Lipton

I just made a depressing discovery when making bread with Andrew last weekend. My old, tried and true baking stone no longer fits easily into my shiny, "new" convection oven

Now that is a true tragedy. I couldn't survive without my large stone.

[Jenise]

I like the No-Knead bread, Jenise, but taking the blazing hot pot out of the oven to toss the bread into scares the heebies out of me. I'm klutzy at the best of times! And with the recipes I use, I've found I get as good if not better a result from using the pizza stones.

I don't always use the pot, but sometimes just a standard flat (and cold) baking sheet, and I still get great results.

We had a breadmaker for years, but after a while I found all the loaves were the same, and it wasn't conducive to making the crusty, heavy breads that I was after.

Never had a breadmaker, but with all due respect to Howie's success and confidence in his, every loaf of bread I've ever had at anyone's house that came out of one pretty much tasted the same, and they all had the same texture. Like you, not the artisanal texture I crave in bread.