How far should a restaurant go?

This topic has appeared on boards from time to time, so apologies if you've seen it elsewhere. It's a topic that's always fascinated me as it goes right to the basics of service and customers.
In your opinion, is the customer "always right"? Should the resto go out of its way to accomodate any whim of the customer, and if not, how far is "far enough"...
Simple substitutions should be a given, but what if the customer wants something not on the menu and that the kitchen would have to make 'special'.
How far would you go or do you think a customer should be allowed to go in changing or substituting items on a pre fixe menu? And how far do you think the resto should go to "make it right"?
All the above excludes legit reasons for substitutions like allergies, dietary or religious reasons with the proviso that the customer has either called before coming to present the problem or if not, is "reasonable" about what the resto can do on a moment's notice.
Sorry for all the verbiage, big topic here and many more permeatations possible, and look forward to the comments.

[Jenise]

I agree with your statement that "simple substitutions should be a given", but I don't think it has to go much further than that. Of course, these days it's kind of a big deal to order "off the menu" in certain restaurants if for no other reason than to feel like a big cheese when the restaurant accomodates you and many restaurants actually have hip-pocket dishes ready to go just for those customers, but most of the time--when you're not say a weekly customer of that restaurant and you have no dietary restrictions per se--it verges on disrespectful IMHO to expect a restaurant to cook only for you. Or to ask a chef to make food he or she wouldn't be proud to serve, which is what many special requests in fact actually amount to.

There is nothing wrong with making a request. But IMO, NO means NO. There is no reason to press the point. There is always another restaurant nearby.

Yes, completely agree with disrespect and "bad manners". Neither should be tolerated but the reality is that both are in some restaurants.
I've owned shares in restos but never the principal owner and am pretty sure if I was, that bad behavior and outlandish requests would be treated with the contempt they deserve and would have no hesitation in asking the customer to leave.
LOL, then again, I might not be in business very long either!

Would you consider a request for a vegetarian dish (many restos that aren't steak houses don't have one as a main course) to be unreasonable? Bourdain certainly thinks so.

Would you consider a request for a vegetarian dish (many restos that aren't steak houses don't have one as a main course) to be unreasonable? Bourdain certainly thinks so.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask and certainly all steak houses that I've been in, have salads and veggy sides on the menu even if no main course is available.
So the question maybe should be, why is the vegetarian in a steak house in the first place. Short of being dragged there kicking & screaming or abducted, and having gone with free will to accompany a partner or relative or whatever, said vegetarian should know what to expect and act accordingly, which includes not railing against the resto for not having 'special' veggy entrees.

Stuart -

I would think that a phone call ahead of time would be the best option for attempting to get vegetarian meals. If the restaurant says no, or sounds like they have little enthusiasm or experience in such cooking, then they're an obvious place to avoid. And it gives a place that's willing to do this a head start on putting something really good together.

If you're already in the place and there's nothing on the menu, then I think it's up to the customer to ask and the restaurant to determine how much they want that customer's repeat business.

Good subject, Shel.

Most restaurants publish their menus on the internet or will gladly e-mail a copy of their menu. If people make the effort to do a little research before making a restaurant reservation they should not be in for any huge surprises regarding what is offered when they arrive.

An expectation for a little adjustment here or there by the kitchen does seem reasonable though. Requests like “Please leave the sauce off those green beans” or “would you please add onion to that”, etc. should usually be accommodated. Demanding that a cream of asparagus soup be made fat-free or insisting that a gnocchi dish be made low-carb is simply rude and should not be accommodated.

Before I make a “special request” in a restaurant, I ask myself if I would make the same request if I were sitting at a table with friends that invited me over for dinner in their house.

Would you consider a request for a vegetarian dish (many restos that aren't steak houses don't have one as a main course) to be unreasonable? Bourdain certainly thinks so.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask and certainly all steak houses that I've been in, have salads and veggy sides on the menu even if no main course is available.
So the question maybe should be, why is the vegetarian in a steak house in the first place. Short of being dragged there kicking & screaming or abducted, and having gone with free will to accompany a partner or relative or whatever, said vegetarian should know what to expect and act accordingly, which includes not railing against the resto for not having 'special' veggy entrees.

Note that I said NOT a steak house. And yes, I have been dragged kicking and screaming to those, and in those cases, I have zero expectations. And that's about what I've gotten, zero, but it's not a surprise or a disappointment. The last one I was blackmailed into didn't even have a vegetarian salad! I drank a diet Coke while watching everyone else eat dinner.

But it's often been the case that I am taken to a business dinner or lunch at a more ambitious restaurant, no chance to plan or call ahead, and they have zero vegetarian main courses on the menu (and sometimes no vegetarian appetizers). I usually ask, but it's pretty hit or miss whether or not I'll get anything worthwhile, and it's not a situation where I can ask to go to another place. Bourdain is definitely not alone in his disdain for vegetarian guests. I don't think my requests at those places are unreasonable, but I'm always interested in the view from the other side.

[Jenise]

Would you consider a request for a vegetarian dish (many restos that aren't steak houses don't have one as a main course) to be unreasonable? Bourdain certainly thinks so.

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but no, absolutely not. Vegetarianism is so common now that any decent restaurant should have at least one non-meat option on the menu. I'm one who frequently orders that option simply because these days it can be the most interesting item on the menu.

a couple of things:
1. a vegetarian who found themselves in danger of being abducted to a steak house might have called ahead to ask what the situation was; and could anything be done with 24 hours warning.
2. often it isn't the chef that is the problem; but staff that think they are going by the rules. at a restaurant in the detroit area whose name is nationally famous for other reasons a bordeaux chateau owner whose stomach was having troubles with all the travel and unusual food saw that a rather nicely sauced fish was on the menu and asked to have it simply prepared as a saute. the waiter and then a manager said this was impossible; and the owner knew this couldn't be true and asked for the chef. though it was lunch, the executive chef was there(somone who at the time would have been called the 'dean' of the areas chefs) and soon there were slaps on the back and jovial exchanges of 'landsman'. the preparation was 'not a problem'.
3. while it is a nice platitude to say that 'difficult things we do immediatly; impossible ones take a bit longer'; in practice, if they are short of staff or a delivery just didn't show up, sometimes things really are impossible. but again a little warning will usually avoid nearly anything like that.

Can't help but wonder if I was abducted to a vegatarian restaurant would they go whip me up a rare steak (beef) upon request?
Redwinger

My reaction to the vegie question is the same as Jenise's--I'd think it a pretty awful restaurant if I couldn't make up a dinner of sides and starters...I probably haven't been into a restaurant of that caliber in ...forever??? So my condolences, Stuart...you must be getting dragged to some hellish places. Blech. I truly feel sorry for you in those cases.

That aside, I am not a big fan of special requests beyond "sauce on the side." If it's a relatively inexpensive place, they might not have the skill to handle more than that. If it's nicer, then I think the chef has put some thought into what's on the menu. That's how he/she created it...I'll give it a shot. If I don't like it, I will remember it...and not order it again...But if I come back and say: "I'll have the scallops I had last time, but can you broil them instead of sauteing them, leave out that green pepper that I really didn't like, then serve it over rice instead of pasta...." Well, I think I'd be going overboard...

[Jenise]

That aside, I am not a big fan of special requests beyond "sauce on the side." If it's a relatively inexpensive place, they might not have the skill to handle more than that. If it's nicer, then I think the chef has put some thought into what's on the menu. That's how he/she created it...

I'm reminded of an ex-friend who I've eaten out with frequently, and who knows nothing, zip, nada about cooking, although she believes that having spent a lot of money in a number of New York's and Paris' best qualifies her to think otherwise. Her experience did nothing to stop her, for instance, from instructing a waiter, after ordering prime rib, "And I want a slice with no gristle!". On another occasion, she told the waiter to have the chef leave the corn starch out of a sauce because the last time she'd had that dish it had "too much corn starch flavor". The sauce, of course, was a reduction. I also saw her attempt to order a curry-flavored dish that she wanted the curry powder left out of. I kid you not. Thinking back, it's almost as if she believed that these very specific instructions set her apart as an experienced diner to be reckoned with rather than reveal her for the boob she was.

I know the question wasn't directed at me

Well, indirectly it was. And thanks for your support! The last time this happened was at a relatively high-end Napa eatery. I was given about zero notice so didn't call ahead. Very nice decor, very nice menu, all dead animal; vegetarianism is uncommon in many places, but California is not one of them! They made me a plate with several unrelated side dishes from other menu items, which were all reasonably tasty, but there was no "there" there. It wasn't like the resto was packed, it just struck me as sheer indifference.

By contrast, the first time I went to Le Cote-Rotie in Ampuis, France, my host had neglected to warn the chef ahead of time, and it turned out that he had never even HEARD of vegetarians, couldn't imagine such a thing. But he thought about it for a minute, smiled, and said, "Veuillez attender, Monsieur," and made me one of the finest meals of my life. The next several times I went, the locals all asked him for the same as I was getting and pronounced them the best things the chef had ever cooked.

But it's often been the case that I am taken to a business dinner or lunch at a more ambitious restaurant, no chance to plan or call ahead, and they have zero vegetarian main courses on the menu (and sometimes no vegetarian appetizers).

Odd. So your colleagues that take you to dinner are apparently either so unfamiliar with you and your preferences or so callous that they insist you eat at a restaurant that cannot even create the most simple vegetarian fare and just make you suffer while you stare into a glass of diet coke?

I often have colleagues here from Bangalore and we are sensitive to their diets. And that's here. I would think your colleagues in the laid back wine industry would be willing to accomodate you.

I just don't think it occurred to them. And if it had, they probably would assume that a Napa restaurant with pretension would accommodate me. Honestly, my needs were pretty far down the priority list; we were trying to bring in money, so the attention was rightly directed toward the guests, not the co-workers.

The steakhouse deal was not my co-workers, it was my ex-wife.

I just don't think it occurred to them. And if it had, they probably would assume that a Napa restaurant with pretension would accommodate me. Honestly, my needs were pretty far down the priority list; we were trying to bring in money, so the attention was rightly directed toward the guests, not the co-workers.

The steakhouse deal was not my co-workers, it was my ex-wife.

LOL, guess we know why she's your ex-wife!

Good subject, Shel.

Most restaurants publish their menus on the internet or will gladly e-mail a copy of their menu. If people make the effort to do a little research before making a restaurant reservation they should not be in for any huge surprises regarding what is offered when they arrive.

An expectation for a little adjustment here or there by the kitchen does seem reasonable though. Requests like "Please leave the sauce off those green beans" or "would you please add onion to that", etc. should usually be accommodated. Demanding that a cream of asparagus soup be made fat-free or insisting that a gnocchi dish be made low-carb is simply rude and should not be accommodated.

Before I make a "special request" in a restaurant, I ask myself if I would make the same request if I were sitting at a table with friends that invited me over for dinner in their house.

Thanks Dave, and good points you made about being 'rude' in a resto and the benchmark question, would you make the same request if you were at a friend's house for dinner.

Can't help but wonder if I was abducted to a vegatarian restaurant would they go whip me up a rare steak (beef) upon request?
Redwinger

Now that's a damn good thought! Should a veggie resto keep some meat around if a carnivore was dragooned into going to the place. I suspect they'd be very offended if that was suggested and is it possible, equally offended if a 'carnivore' resto didn't have a veggy option were they to be misled into entering.

and said, "Veuillez attender, Monsieur," and made me one of the finest meals of my life. The next several times I went, the locals all asked him for the same as I was getting and pronounced them the best things the chef had ever cooked.

Stuart, I do not speak nor read french, so I am racking my brain for a translation for "Veuillez attender" and I am guessing it to be something like "as you wish sir" am I close?

Thank you all for your great comments and observations. And I'd like to say it's a pleasure to be among such a well-mannered bunch!
May I rachet this up a notch and add the following:
What are your feelings about diners going to an upscale resto dressed, males-baseball caps, sleeveless shirts or t-shirts, flipflops, shorts, applied to both sexes and...you get the picture.
I think this is another form of rudeness so applicable to this thread and wonder what you think the resto should do, go with the flow, ban them from coming in, or what.
And LOL, are we leading up to screaming children...maybe that should be a separate thread!

Bob, it's a very polite way of saying, "Hold on."

Shel, I don't buy the analogy. It's like asking for bacon at a kosher restaurant. The presence of vegetables, eggs, milk, and other non-dead-animal stuff is a given, even in a decidedly non-vegetarian restaurant.

And, for the record, putting aside traditional Chinese Buddhist monastery cuisine, I absolutely HATE vegetarian restaurants as a class (I'm sure there's an odd exception somewhere, but I haven't found it yet).

What are your feelings about diners going to an upscale resto dressed, males-baseball caps, sleeveless shirts or t-shirts, flipflops, shorts, applied to both sexes and...you get the picture.

Doesn't bother me a bit.

And LOL, are we leading up to screaming children...maybe that should be a separate thread!

Bothers me a lot.