Absinthe

Absinthe is new to me (and the DC area, I think). I've never had it but I'd like to try some. What does it taste like and does anyone have a preferred method of serving it? Is it worth all the hoopla?

Absinthe is new to me (and the DC area, I think). I've never had it but I'd like to try some. What does it taste like and does anyone have a preferred method of serving it? Is it worth all the hoopla?

I had it in Europe. It is a strong anise flavored liquor. The way it was served was poured into a glass, then they put a sugar cube in a spoon over the glass and poured water over the sugar cube and into the absinthe below.

I'd rather have a high quality Ouzo.

I have been given to understand that absinthe makes the heart grow fonder.....


From Wikipedia:

Absinthe was portrayed as a dangerously addictive psychoactive drug.[2] The chemical thujone, present in small quantities, was blamed for its alleged harmful effects. By 1915, absinthe had been banned in the United States and in most European countries except the United Kingdom, Spain, Portugal, and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Although absinthe was vilified, no evidence has shown it to be any more dangerous than ordinary liquor. Its psychoactive properties, apart from those of alcohol, had been much exaggerated.[2]

A revival of absinthe began in the 1990s, when countries in the European Union began to reauthorize its manufacture and sale. As of February 2008, nearly 200 brands of absinthe were being produced in a dozen countries, most notably France, Switzerland, Spain, and the Czech Republic.[3]

Absinthe is new to me (and the DC area, I think). I've never had it but I'd like to try some. What does it taste like and does anyone have a preferred method of serving it? Is it worth all the hoopla?

Iti probably is not worth all the hoopla. The absinthe of Freud and Toulouse-Lautrec is no longer available (and if it is, it is still an underground experience). The primary ingredient that caused the experience known as "the green fairies" has been removed or significantly distilled -- wormwood.

Absinthe is new to me (and the DC area, I think). I've never had it but I'd like to try some. What does it taste like and does anyone have a preferred method of serving it? Is it worth all the hoopla?

Iti probably is not worth all the hoopla. The absinthe of Freud and Toulouse-Lautrec is no longer available (and if it is, it is still an underground experience). The primary ingredient that caused the experience known as "the green fairies" has been removed or significantly distilled -- wormwood.

That's no longer true, Jo Ann. Recent revision of the laws have spurred an Absinthe revival, with several operations trying to recreate old Absinthe recipes. It's doubtful that anyone can be sure that they're got the same stuff as the Absinthe of legend, but they're probably close.

Mark Lipton

[quote="Bill Spohn"]I have been given to understand that absinthe makes the heart grow fonder.....


From Wikipedia:<SNIP>

Be careful with the Wikipedia entry, Bill. Sometime WLDG contributor Max Hauser has been conducting a fevered rearguard effort to remove the several half-truths and insert more of the real science into the Wikipedia discussion, but he's come up against a cabal of Absinthe enthusiasts who are connected to a particular commercial Absinthe operation...

Mark Lipton

Absinthe is new to me (and the DC area, I think). I've never had it but I'd like to try some. What does it taste like and does anyone have a preferred method of serving it? Is it worth all the hoopla?

It's a very interesting drink, Jon, but there are many different versions of it, not all of which are so interesting. In its truest form, it's a lurid green liqueur that is poured over ice, whereupon it turns milky white (just like Ouzo if you've ever had that). Also like Ouzo, it has a strong anise flavor to it, but additionally has a strong herbal taste a la Chartreuse (which IIRC was introduced as an Absinthe substitute after the ban). It is also quite alcoholic and really knocked me for a loop when I had some with Rahsaan and Max Hauser in Berkeley some years ago. I spent an hour drinking water afterwards before I felt comfortable getting near a car afterward (and I didn't have much).

Mark Lipton

Be careful with the Wikipedia entry, Bill. Sometime WLDG contributor Max Hauser has been conducting a fevered rearguard effort to remove the several half-truths and insert more of the real science into the Wikipedia discussion, but he's come up against a cabal of Absinthe enthusiasts who are connected to a particular commercial Absinthe operation...

Mark, you'd be in a better position than I (my biochemical and personal experimental days being pretty far removed now) to comment on the effects of thujone ( I don't think any of the other various active ingredients cause or are alleged to cause problems, do they?)

I used to imbibe yellow Chartreuse (if that isn't a contradiction in terms, like a 'red green') but have never tried modern Absinthe. I am told by a friend that should know that the 'Green Fairy' is popular among the gay community, for obvious reasons, I suppose and perhaps also because you need to be a bit of a devil-may-care to drink it unless it is properly diluted. I understand that many people try to drink it undiluted, which sounds like rather painful masochism to me.

I do not like sweet liqueurs, so Absinthe may suit me quite well. Must try a bottle. Of course I drink so little hard liquor a bottle would last me years.

Mark, you'd be in a better position than I (my biochemical and personal experimental days being pretty far removed now) to comment on the effects of thujone ( I don't think any of the other various active ingredients cause or are alleged to cause problems, do they?)

Yes, the hoopla was over thujone's supposed toxicity, which conveniently ignored the available data and the common knowledge that thujone was found in several commonly consumed foods. Here are the data from Merck:

alpha-thujone: LD50 in mice (subcutaneous) = 87.5 mg/kg
beta-thujone: LD50 in mice = 442.2 mg/kg

(naturally occuring thujone exists as a 33:67 mixture of alpha and beta forms)

Even taking the now-discredited estimate of 260 mg of thujone present in a litre of absinthe, one would still need to drink 100 bottles or so of absinthe to present a health hazard to a 70 kg human. So it's clear that the alcohol presents a much more serious problem than the thujone does once one dispenses with the hysteria.

I used to imbibe yellow Chartreuse (if that isn't a contradiction in terms, like a 'red green') but have never tried modern Absinthe. I am told by a friend that should know that the 'Green Fairy' is popular among the gay community, for obvious reasons, I suppose and perhaps also because you need to be a bit of a devil-may-care to drink it unless it is properly diluted. I understand that many people try to drink it undiluted, which sounds like rather painful masochism to me.

I do not like sweet liqueurs, so Absinthe may suit me quite well. Must try a bottle. Of course I drink so little hard liquor a bottle would last me years.

I think that you would quite like a quality absinthe, Bill. We're in the same boat re our preferences and I found my one sample of absinthe quite interesting, albeit not something I would ever consume in quantity or with any regularity.

Mark Lipton

If you've ever drunk Pernod, then you pretty much know what absinthe tastes like.

I agree with the others. The original ban was based on some specious evidence. More likely, it was the high proof of absinthe that caused all the trouble. I've had the real stuff several times, including some shipped from Eastern Europe.

Absinthe is new to me (and the DC area, I think). I've never had it but I'd like to try some. What does it taste like and does anyone have a preferred method of serving it? Is it worth all the hoopla?

Absinthe was never banned in the UK. It became fashionable again about 10 years ago in London clubs. The Vinopolis wine experience in London has had a Absinthe tasting counter for some years, and for the past coupl eof years the man that runs La Fee Absinthe has been running a workshop at the London Trade wine Fair.

What does it taste like? Easy. Try Pernod or Ricard pastis. That is what it taste and looks like. Pastis was the Absinthe substitute introduced after absinthe was banned by the French government, but a Pernod Absinthe continued to be made for export.

It is a thick oily liquid that must be diluted with 6-8 times as much water --doing so brings on the 'louche', the action of bringing solids out of suspension and makingthe clear liquid turn milky.

The French way is to drip ice-cold water through a sugar cube on a flat spoon with holes balanced over the glass -- as below



The sugar is just to sweeten it. Diluting is important. It is not meant to be drunk neat, not only do you not get the louche, but it has very high alcohol, 65-85% abv

From what I understand of what I have read, the drink now allowed to be sold in the USA with the name absinthe is not the real thing.

Is it worth all the hoop-la? I don't think so. I think a lot (all?) the publicity in the US is because it is/was banned.

There are a range of absinthes made in France, Switzerland & Eastern Europe with different colours and tastes. For me, Pernod 68 is my favourite. (68%abv)

I feature absinthe in one of the books on which I am working.

To the best of my knowledge it may not be imported to or distilled or sold in the US. But, it is not illegal to possess or drink it. Makes as much sense as most of the other laws passed bu Congress.

Oh, and if you're going to give up thujone for Lent you might as well knock sage, rosemary and thyme right of your diets, too.

Ed. - as follows...

I was interrupted - I was going to add Simon and Garfunkel to the terrorist watch list for their advocacy.

Be careful with the Wikipedia entry, Bill. ...

Good advice for anything on Wikipedia, especially food and drink. Wikipedia, self-posted and self-edited, becomes on the more myth-filled subjects a good picture of its authors' notions, or the notions they seek to popularize -- not always the objective story. I've found amazing howlers any reference book would correct.

But the problem of the recent hobbyist absinthe experts is complex. Often they spread useful and demystifying information. Some of them have bought into parts of the long-obsolete mystique while denouncing others. Controversy re the Wiki site is that it's written largely by a few of the same people, some with blind spots and all with business interests in absinthe. If they fail to clarify or explain their motives, people wonder. Fine print below is one of many summaries I've posted about the absinthe mythos, old and new. It's from the mouthfuls absinthe thread, which discusses the Wikipedia issue around Here. I have some of the recent US-legal absinthes. I first tried the real stuff in 1982 and first posted information 1988 (on rec.food.drink). I find them interesting (their history more so); it's a distinctive drink, but I prefer wine, or fine artisanal whiskeys.

The 1910-1915 international absinthe bans (part of the larger Prohibition movement that later temporarily outlawed most alcoholic drinks in several countries, incidentally raising alcohol consumption as a result) sort of "froze" public perceptions of absinthe at a time when its properties and the herbal chemistry were less understood.

Nutshell history: Around the 1860s a French physician, Magnan, published papers attributing alarming properties to absinthe, most later proven wrong, even bizarre. Magnan's results were popularized by various parties agitating against alcohol or absinthe (the new everyday fashionable drink in France). The herbal principle thujone was identified then or slightly later and proved an attractive scapegoat. As momentum gathered for a ban, early 1900s, advertisements included the claim "thujone-free by chemical analysis." A grotesque murder case tipped opinion to bring French and Swiss bans. (Murderer's rampage was blamed on his shot or two of absinthe in the course of a daylong binge. Not on the gallon of wine and bottle or two of other spirits he consumed along with it.) By 1915 absinthe sale was banned in most countries where it had been popular. (In the US, it became banned as an unsafe food component by the FDA.) By the 1930s though, the plant chemistry had progressed: thujone was identified as a widespread herb component, abundant in ancient common seasoning herbs everyone eats. (And that the USFDA listed, simultaneously, as entirely safe.) Thujone's commonness, and the relative toxicity point -- that alcohol is the most lethal component in any absinthe, by a factor of at least a few hundred -- were in mainstream scientific text and reference books by the 1940s. (I have some of them in my absinthe library.) In 1997 on the Internet, Matthew Baggott summarized existing research papers on absinthe and its possible psychoactivity, including lack of effects from thujone or wormwood alone. He reviewed potential thujone content of distilled absinthes (up to a few hundred mg per bottle) from the amounts of wormwood used; but thujone need not carry over in distillation, and actually you'd predict as much if you know the physical properties of the chemicals involved -- it isn't a surprising result. (Again, thujone-free absinthe was even a selling point before the ban.)

Unfortunately for the stuff's demystification, 19th-century absinthe notions endure (after the long lapse of public discussion). Journalistic stories the last couple of years (even purporting to put you wise about absinthe) have mostly just repeated basics that interested people were already reading decades ago in Delahaye's or Conrad's or other informed popular books, and even those sources neglected key scientific points that are much older: thujone is widespread, no absinthe has as much thujone as some (exquisite) Italian pasta sauces do, some absinthes have none at all, and even that doesn't affect lethal dose in practice, since alcohol far dominates it. And (while I'm at it) pure thujone's lethal dosage resembles caffeine's and both are much, much larger amounts than you ever encounter in foods and drinks.

Some new scientific studies are fleshing out details. But the main, dramatic upshots above have been easily available to anyone interested for between 60 and 100 years, and even nowadays they're ignored in writings on the subject.

This is a pretty good site: http://wormwoodsociety.org/

There are many interesting reviews of real absinthe on the site. And there are quite a few European based online outlets where authentic absinthe can be purchased from. And I believe they can be imported in to the US easily. http://www.absintheonline.com/index.html

Bryan

Thanks to all who shared their thoughts! I have learned quite a bit. I think I'll wait until it comes out in miniatures.

BMcKenney, you named one of the principal hobbyist-expert enclaves I alluded to, which illustrates the complexity I mentioned. (Please read more detailed discussion on the mouthfuls link I posted previously, and comment if you have thoughts.) If I recall, the guy behind WWS, who by the way does not use a full name in any postings I've seen, also wrote most of the Wikipedia absinthe page, whose links point noticeably to his and related sites. WWS definitely carries discussion of current absinthe products, and on its informational pages has solid summaries of the tutorial information long available in the major published sources. Much forum discussion there concerns myths and opportunisms surrounding absinthe liquors. All to the good.

But (for whatever reason of blind spots or agenda I don't presume to know) the tutorial information from that source has eccentricities obvious to people who've read in depth about absinthe and its science. Some choices of terms and sources stand out as atypical of the absinthe literature, but the departure isn't explained. I recall seeing opinion or judgment asserted as fact, and argument by conviction rather than evidence, often enough to raise flags to any writer who works much with hard factual data (such those of you who are working scientists and accustomed to evidentiary standards). It didn't help the image when, a few years ago, the same guy suddenly dropped in on a venerable absinthe thread on another site, apparently without reading it for long, or at all; dumped tutorial basics without relating them to the thread's past coverage on the same points; and instructed us all about absinthe as if there weren't already years of informed discussion in the thread. Thujone was "poison," and "we" know so much more about absinthe now than just a few years ago. I've asked him a few times about points we (and the literature) demonstrably knew about absinthe for decades -- as I summarized in fine print above -- but he and his disciples never seem to "get" this, instead fixating on one issue that they view as news, the low thujone content of practical absinthes. That subject has indeed been explored lately, but it surfaced a century ago, well documented today, hence isn't news. More importantly, they choose to obsess over low thujone rather than put thujone into vitally needed context. Relative quantitative toxicities, other herbal components with similar properties ingested daily without comment, and thujone's prevalence in other foods all are not news either, and together they paint a picture of thujone as basically irrelevant except for statutory issues. Which are themselves called into question by USFDA's still singling out wormwood (A. absinthium), alone among thujone-bearing herbs, for regulation (on the express basis that it contains thujone!).

To focus on thujone, even 60-70 years after its public demystification, doesn't just sustain obsolete myth: It creates a seriously dangerous (but profitable?) misimpression that absinthe without thujone is much safer than absinthe with thujone.

I feature absinthe in one of the books on which I am working.

To the best of my knowledge it may not be imported to or distilled or sold in the US. But, it is not illegal to possess or drink it. Makes as much sense as most of the other laws passed bu Congress.

Chef, that statement is incorrect. It is legal to import and sell Absinthe in the US, as long as its thujone content is 10 ppm or less. (That makes little to no sense, either -- see my comments elsewhere in this thread or Max H.'s detailed explanation) I have seen Absinthe for sale in various bars.

Oh, and if you're going to give up thujone for Lent you might as well knock sage, rosemary and thyme right of your diets, too.

Spot on. Sage oil is 50% thujone by weight.

Mark Lipton

...It is legal to import and sell Absinthe in the US, as long as its thujone content is 10 ppm or less. (That makes little to no sense, either -- see my comments elsewhere in this thread or Max H.'s detailed explanation)

Yes and as I alluded to above, I've tried Lucid, St. George, and Kübler products sold in US (the St. George was the first to release under the new label law, I think, and it's the only one of these using brandy as a base, like the original Pernod absinthe -- the product the Pernod firm was built for, and the one that started all the fuss 150 years ago).

Interesting sidelight I never see discussed online: Last year's revision of US AT-TTB liquor-label regulations permitted, at last, the "A" word on US labels (with restrictions: the word must be below a certain size, and as part of a phrase -- it can't appear alone).

This was just a labeling change. Products have sold legally in US for years without the "A" word, but claiming to use the wormwood family with low thujone. I mentioned Versinthe seven years ago when recommending Conrad's book on Amazon (still the lead customer review of it, by the way). I've asked if anyone is aware of recent US-legal absinthes being basically different in any more than name but so far no one has commented.

I'd meant to expand a detail from Mark's excellent point on toxicity, in case it's of interest.

Yes, the hoopla was over thujone's supposed toxicity, which conveniently ignored available data and common knowledge that thujone was found in several commonly consumed foods. ...from Merck:
alpha-thujone: LD50 in mice (subcutaneous) = 87.5 mg/kg
beta-thujone: LD50 in mice = 442.2 mg/kg
(naturally occuring thujone exists as a 33:67 mixture of alpha and beta forms)

Thanks Mark for quoting this standard authoritative reference information and there's somewhat more to the story, found in other sources with more on the plant chemistry. The 1:2 ratio above for alpha and beta isomers is an equilibrium ratio, not (contrary to some hasty mentions of which I'm probably among the guilty) the ratio found in plants. That ratio varies, even in a given plant species.

The upshot is a "working" or typical mouse 50% lethal dose number for natural thujone sources, in both chemical and botanical authorities. As I remember it's just about 135 mg/kg but anyway it is essentially identical to the corresponding number for caffeine in the same sources. And you get more caffeine in a cup of good coffee (low 100's of mg) than the thujone in a bottle of even the most thujone-rich absinthe possible, because that's about the amount of thujone per finished bottle that's typically available in the pre-distillation wormwood macerate [Baggott], and most of it, famously, doesn't distill. Caffeine's tocixity nuances differ, but like thujone it kills by convulsions in gross overdose.

Therefore, any informed commentator concerned about health effects from thujone will focus first on caffeine. And before that, on the alcohol in absinthe. Because it takes around 20 liters of strong coffee to cause fatalities in human-sized animals (which happens very rarely) but only 1-2 liters of strong distilled spirits (not so rare, unfortunately).

Because it takes around 20 liters of strong coffee to cause fatalities in human-sized animals (which happens very rarely) but only 1-2 liters of strong distilled spirits (not so rare, unfortunately).

The world record for beer drinking in 5 minutes is 7.75 imperial pints so someoen would have to repeat that 5 times in a row before entering the zone of poisoning. I daresy their stomach, or failing that, kidneys would give out before they died of thujone poisoning.

That sort of intake would put even those Australians that indulge in the Six O'clock Swill to shame.

Chef, that statement is incorrect. It is legal to import and sell Absinthe in the US, as long as its thujone content is 10 ppm or less. (That makes little to no sense, either -- see my comments elsewhere in this thread or Max H.'s detailed explanation) I have seen Absinthe for sale in various bars.

You're right. Should have checked again since I last did my research in 2006.

My statement would have been correct any time between 1912 and 2007.