Challenge for Pairing Pros

First two courses for Xmas eve are tricky ones:

#1 Roast pepper and tomato puree with a little cream, topped with seared scallops, sliced artichoke hearts and basil. I'm all over the map on this one - rose'? sparkling wine? Gruner? Sauvignon Blanc?

#2 Salad of frisee, chestnuts, cranberries and roast butternut squash, with a mustardy dressing. I'm thinking Pinot Noir or Lagrein (the cranberries) but could be convinced otherwise.

Any suggestions?

Christian

#1 served same sort of soup 2 week ago, after a kona kampachi tartare, and followed by a classic caesar salad for three of my wine group friends and their wives. They provided the whites and I the reds. Aged Rieslings, and Rhone whites married well as did a "lost in the cellar" 99 Camus Sauvignon Blanc.

#2 Instead of a Pinot go to an older Rioja, served in large glasses so any funk can rapidly escape.

Sparkling wine or a dry Moscato could be a nice match for the first course.

The sweetness of the second presents a challenge; the mustardy dressing makes me think Beaujolais.

#1, I would go rose.

#2, I might try a Vouvray. Domaine Pichot is a little on the drier side for Vouvray and has nice acidity.

rwj

1. Provencal rose is sure to work. But you could go with a white from Provence like Cassis, or Albarino/Alvarinho, or that Basque white known as Txakoli.

2. The salad is death to red wine. One NEVER chooses a wine to match an accent (like cranberry). Think about it. Pinot/lagrein and mustard dressing on bitter frisee! What are you thinking?!!!! Thank God you ask advice...

First of all, the combination of ingredients is too much of a mish-mash. The chestnuts and roast squash are both serving the same culinary purpose, so lose one of them if you want the salad to work. It's like putting both goat cheese and feta in the same salad. Next, mustard dressing does not go with either chestnut or the squash. I'm sorry about being blunt, but you need to change the dish. Come back with a better concept and I can suggest a wine.

1. Provencal rose is sure to work. But you could go with a white from Provence like Cassis, or Albarino/Alvarinho, or that Basque white known as Txakoli.

2. The salad is death to red wine. One NEVER chooses a wine to match an accent (like cranberry). Think about it. Pinot/lagrein and mustard dressing on bitter frisee! What are you thinking?!!!! Thank God you ask advice...

First of all, the combination of ingredients is too much of a mish-mash. The chestnuts and roast squash are both serving the same culinary purpose, so lose one of them if you want the salad to work. It's like putting both goat cheese and feta in the same salad. Next, mustard dressing does not go with either chestnut or the squash. I'm sorry about being blunt, but you need to change the dish. Come back with a better concept and I can suggest a wine.

Come back with better manners and he might accept your suggestion, too.

The salad will work fine. That comment made about the squash and chestnuts serving the same purpose is just plain silly. And the mustard dressing will be fine with them. I think that a light Dijon dressing would be fine.

Miller, the most important rule in cooking for oneself is to put flavors together that YOU like. We are not worried about Bernard here. And it is not your fault if his palate is unadventurous.

But in his defense I will say that the mustard dressing will kill any red wine. I would go with a Vouvray or viognier for the salad. And don't change a thing. I think that it will be good. Oh, and did I mention that I am a chef for a living?

rwj

[Jenise]

Christian,

I'd probably go with sauvignon blanc on the first dish. Reason: it has a pretty big variety of flavors going on, so I'd play up the tang.

For the salad, I'd serve a fruity California viognier. I disagree with Bernie that mustard is deadly, at least in moderation, and I think it's going to get plenty of that from the sweet nut and the sweet squash, both of which will get some play from the big fruit on the wine. Going off dry to an Alsatian tokay pinot gris might work quite nicely too.

Hi Christian,

I would probably serve the soup with a NZ SB...it will cut through the cream, it has nice acidity to stand of to the tomato, and I think the grassy flavours would play nicely with the pepper and basil. My second choice would be something sparkling...(I would be tempted by a rose or even a light red, but since it's the first course, I think it needs to be white...JMO.)

I might consider serving a SB with your salad course as well. If you didn't want to do that, however, I do think a nice German Kabinett Riesling would do the trick.

GL with your decision...I think your courses sound very nice! Definitely tricky to pair though. Let us know what you go with!

I'd go with a crisp sparking wine for #1, and keep SB (or maybe a simpler Chablis) as second choice.

I generally announce salad as being the palate cleanser, and let guests choose to keep guzzling previous wine or sticking to bubbly water.

But in his defense I will say that the mustard dressing will kill any red wine.
rwj

You know Jenise, I remember having a nice Valmoissine with a salad Lyonnaise one time and it was just delicious. The mustard in that dressing was very light. So a really light Pinot Nior could actually work with this salad.

So forget what I said about being in defense of Bernard.

rwj

RWJ,
If you doubt me, just make the salad for yourself and try it, Mr. Chef. It has nothing to do with being adventurous. It has to do with balance of flavors, or too many flavors and redundant flavors.
Forgive me for being opinionated - I been at it a long time, and sometimes I take a bit much dramatic license for effect.
BR

RWJ,
If you doubt me, just make the salad for yourself and try it, Mr. Chef. It has nothing to do with being adventurous. It has to do with balance of flavors, or too many flavors and redundant flavors.
Forgive me for being opinionated - I been at it a long time, and sometimes I take a bit much dramatic license for effect.
BR

Mr. Chef tried it and liked it. So did two other Mr. Chef's and one Ms. Chef, all three of which happen to be colleagues of Mr. Chef. I didn't necessarily make it the same way Miller did (the ingredients were the same; he didn't say anything about technique) but it was fine. Sweet, nutty, spicy, and slightly bitter with a touch of earthiness...very fall/winter style salad.

Bernard, you don't come across as opinionated, you come across as just plain rude. Feel free to do what you have been doing "a long time" somewhere else.

rwj

[Jenise]

Hey boys,

Robert--Bernie has been a participant here for years, and he's a very accomplished cook with very high and exacting standards (as are you). We don't want him going anywhere. Yeah he came across a little heavy, but sometimes what we say in print fails to have the lighter tone we'd have if we voiced the words in person. From years of talking with Bernie, I have to think this is one of those cases. I hope Christian did, too.

Bernie--but Robert's right, you did come across pretty heavy there and I understand his being taken aback.

I'm interested in your objection to mustard and red wine, though. I wouldn't have put red wine with Christian's dish, but the mustard part wouldn't have been the concern. Rather, without a recipe and just looking at that combination, I'd presume the sweet butternut squash to be the dominating flavor, and with back up vocals from the chestnuts I'd be looking for something to handle the sweetness. The cranberries, I would further presume, would be more or less just there for color/holiday accent. Hence my suggestion of a fruity, lower-acid white like viognier, thinking the latter would balance the acidity from the mustard.

But otherwise, I love mustard and red wine and consider it a good combination, depending on the amount of mustard and the red wine in question, of course. Do you really reject the combination out of hand, the way it seemed here?

Mustard based sauces paired with Burgundy are pretty classic. In this particular instance, something lighter and fruitier seemed appropriate (thus my suggestion of Beaujolais). But if mustard is indeed anathema to wine, the Burgundians don't seem to realize it.

Jenise, thanks for sticking up for me. I have no intent of letting RJ set the standards for who should or should not participate, though I do take his admonition to heart.

My objection is not the mustard, per se, but the natural combination of mustard with vinegar to dress the greens and then serve with red wine. I am curious what RJ drank with his salad, since this thread is about pairing. But as an aside, I would like to know how chestnut complements roasted squash. To me their similarity exceeds their differences on the palate.

re: Burgundians and mustard. Of course, Dijon is the mustard capital. Usually, the mustard is incorporated into a cooked dish or served as a condiment with strong flavored meat. Beaujolais would be the wine of choice for the latter, though I would not be surprised to see better Burgogne on the table.

Bernard, I'll offer up an apology. I have no right whatsoever to say who can and can't post here. That job is left to the moderators. But you do come across heavy handed (not just in this thread, either) and I take offense at your words.

I try to be very careful in how I play around on the forums because, as Jenise pointed out, it is difficult to gauge one's intent in writing. Especially when so many are involved it becomes even more difficult. Still, my apology stands and I extend my right hand for a gentlemanly shake. Truce?

The salad was served with a Ferraton Condrieu and a Domaine Pichot Vouvray 2005. Both paired wonderfully; enough acid and slight minerality to compliment the greens and dressing as well as the nuts. The sweetness of the wines played well with the cranberries and squash, also with the slight sweetness of the nuts.

While the nuts and squash have a similar sweetness, the texture is completely different. Also I found that the squash doesn't have that deeper earthiness/minerality that I find in most nuts (chestnuts included).

The chestnuts provided a nice texture, too. It gave you something substantial to chew while not being too overwhelming.

I had been thinking about the combo of Burgundy and mustard since Stuart's post. He's right in saying that is a classic. But as you pointed out (and as I have been thinking) those pairings come with a sauce rather than a vinaigrette. The vinegar is what poses the problem with red wines. I went for lemon juice instead and went easy on that. The dressing was very light and it allowed the other flavors to shine clearly.

In my professional opinion this salad is a winner. Several people who are not food experts (just eaters) liked it as well. Thanks Miller, it is a good recipe.

I diced the squash and roasted them and tossed them into the salad. The chestnuts were roasted, cut in quarters and set on the side of the salad. Pics tonight.

rwj

I know it's trendy, but why not sub some verjus for the vinegar?

And not to be Mr. Contrary, but I have not found vinaigrettes (when done properly and in moderation and with the right stuff to enrobe) to be universally wine killers. Then again, I've made it my quest to puncture myths like that (e.g., wine and eggs, wine and artichokes).

WOW! This is the first thread I read this morning. I'm loving it -- nothing like a little pissing contest to get the blood flowing. And, between chefs nonetheless. GOOD Stuff! I've learned alot just being a fly on the wall. But, I do have to disagree with you about wine and mustard. I regularly make vinegrettes using a soupcon of Dijon for slight emulsification to a red wine or white wine vinegar, with a little bit of the wine of choice as a backdrop to bring up the fruitiness in the dressing. One of my favorites is the white wine/mustard combination with fresh chopped tarragon (just enough honey or sugar to balance the acid). It suits my palate, which I'm certain is not nearly as refined as those who have the floor. (tickled pink)

Fate intervened with a cold slap in the face to remind me that there are more important things than food and wine pairings. On Christmas eve my Mom (somewhat frail but valiantly visiting us for Xmas on the west coast) fell very ill and we spent the next two days in the emergency and recovery rooms in Alta Bates Hospital in Berkeley. It turned out to be nothing more than a vicious stomach bug, but it seemed touch and go for a while, Mom being 76 and a brain cancer survivor without a lot of reserves for this sort of thing. But she is tough and determined, and was soon back on her feet and in celebration we rescheduled the whole Xmas eve dinner, in slightly simplified form, three days late.

The seared scallops were dropped in roast tomato-pepper soup, replaced by sliced artichoke hearts, basil and crisp pancetta. This opened the way to going red, although we also opened a white in deference to mom, who likes them dry:
Cotes de St. Mont blanc “les Vignes Retrouvées” 2004, Vignerons de Plaimont – nice lemony-fruit aroma with a hint of tobacco ; subtle but complex flavor, somewhat Jurancon-like, bone dry, decent length, good acidity. ***+

Volnay 1re cru 1996, de Montille – fine aroma of beetroot, turned earth, Pinot fruit and touches of clove and cedar; medium body, somewhat closed and hard on palate with good acidity and medium body, very Pinot, decent length, mellowed somewhat with air. Tastes middle-aged with more to come. ***(*?)

The salad was brought by my cousins, no longer so complicated but very delicious, being the classic combination of walnuts, blue cheese, pears and mixed greens, with dried cranberries. Quite fine with the red burgundy, thank you.

The main course of braised pork shoulder in red wine with pears and juniper commanded another, more forceful red burgundy:
Gevrey-Chambertin “la Justice” 1999, Domaine Arlaud – fine Burgundian yet clean Pinot nose, slightly gamey with spice and fruit; medium body but with good density and grip, iron-meaty-gamey ripe Pinot fruit, significant tannins and a touch of pepper, almost Cote Rotie-like. Long rather tannic finish. ***(*+)

Dessert was chocolate cups filled with chestnut puree and creme fraiche. No wine really accompanied the dessert, but we enjoyed a domestic port afterwards:
Dry Creek Port “4 Grapes” 2002, Pedroncelli – from the old Raymond Burr vineyard, Tinta Madeira, Souzao, Touriga (no further details) and Tinta Cao. Sweet fruit aroma with walnut and sassafras hints; flavors remniscent of Portuguese table wines but without the depth and grip of classic vintage port; but very tasty flavor with a leafy tone and good liveliness, medium body, moderate soft tannins. Nice job for Californian port. ***+

All's well that ends well! Cheers and may all your crises in 2008 end as well as this one...

1. Provencal rose is sure to work. But you could go with a white from Provence like Cassis, or Albarino/Alvarinho, or that Basque white known as Txakoli.

I like the rose' and Albarino reccs, but I had none available. I just don't get Txakoli, tastes like cheap vino verde or verjus to me, but maybe I haven't had the right ones.

2. The salad is death to red wine. One NEVER chooses a wine to match an accent (like cranberry).

I disagree. When the accent is the most flavorful and tricky ingredient, then the wine needs to take it into account.

First of all, the combination of ingredients is too much of a mish-mash. The chestnuts and roast squash are both serving the same culinary purpose, so lose one of them if you want the salad to work. It's like putting both goat cheese and feta in the same salad. Next, mustard dressing does not go with either chestnut or the squash. I'm sorry about being blunt, but you need to change the dish. Come back with a better concept and I can suggest a wine.

Disagree again on the chestnuts and roast squash, although they work in the same "mellow" spectrum, the flavors are different. But both are very amenable to a variety of wines IMHO. The mustard was not going to be very sharp, and in any case I have never felt mustard to be a big issue for wine. But of course, your mileage may vary.

re: Burgundians and mustard. Of course, Dijon is the mustard capital. Usually, the mustard is incorporated into a cooked dish or served as a condiment with strong flavored meat. Beaujolais would be the wine of choice for the latter, though I would not be surprised to see better Burgogne on the table.

Interesting that you and Stuart both approve of the pairing of Burgundy and mustard, but it sounds like you're thinking red. To my taste, mustard sauces and recipes (lapin a la moutarde!) are delicious with riper but simpler white burgundies and California Chardonnay.

Christian: So glad to hear your Mom bounced back from her illness.

(She sounds like a doughty warrior too. I was always amazed at what my Mom, a survivor of the Depression and Deep South poverty, went through medically. She was one tough lady, and like your Mom, came back from sickness and travail with great strength of character.)

And I'm with you on both the salad and mustard issue. I thought we (meaning California Cuisine and its adherents) had sufficiently put that salad shibboleth one to rest. And I've always though mustard went well with Burgundy. A lot of Burgundians seem to think so too. But I wouldn't rule out reds. I remember quite vividly one night in Beaune where Madam cooked up a wonderful rabbit in mustard sauce, then whomped it en croute (Leapin' Wellington!) and served it up with a delicious Marsannay. Of course, I've always thought Marsannay Pinot Noir was just the deepest colored white Burgundy there was. Sure was great with Mr. Floppy Mopsy that night.