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Organics

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Jo Ann Henderson

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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Jo Ann Henderson » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:21 am

SUMMARY — "Organically grown" refers to the methods used to grow and process agricultural products (eg, fruits, vegetables, dairy, meat, and poultry) and is not related to nutritional quality or food safety [1,5,11]. Both organic and conventional farming supply nutritious foods when selected as part of a well-balanced diet [11,15,87].

Factors to consider when deciding whether to use organic products include:

Organic foods are not free of synthetic pesticide residues, but probably contain smaller amounts than are present on conventionally grown foods. Thus, organically grown foods provide an alternative source of fruits and vegetables for individuals who are concerned about synthetic pesticides. (See "Reduction of exposure" above).
Infants and children may be more susceptible to the adverse effects of pesticides than are adults. (See "Exposure in utero" above, and see "Exposure in childhood" above).
In general, the traces of pesticide residue that are found in food pose little threat to human health. Potential adverse effects of pesticide exposure on special populations include neurologic, developmental, and reproductive disorders. (See "Exposure in utero" above and see "Adverse effects" above).
Populations involved in agricultural work have higher levels of pesticide exposure, but evidence of adverse effects of such exposure levels is limited. (See "Exposure in utero" above and see "Exposure in childhood" above).
Pesticides help to maintain an abundant and varied food supply. Pesticide use is regulated by the EPA and enforced by the USDA and the FDA. Efforts are being made to ensure that these regulations are appropriate for infants and children. (See "Pesticide regulation" above).
Exposure to pesticide residue in either organic or conventionally grown food can be reduced through washing, peeling, cooking, or processing of foods. (See "Reduction of exposure" above).
Organic food production does not eliminate the risk of foodborne illness, and "organic" should not be interpreted as meaning "safe". (See "Microbial infection" above).
Organic farming supports smaller, family-owned farms and may be more environmentally friendly [5].
RECOMMENDATIONS — Despite the possible risks of pesticide residues, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Dietetic Association, the American Medical Society, and the American Cancer Society recommend a diet that is rich in fruits and vegetables, with between five and nine servings of these foods daily [88-90].
Thank you, Thomas. Well Done! I think this is the crux of the matter. And, it does answer the question what is the difference. It appears the answer is, other than ease of mind (given the many qualifiers) -- little!
"...To undersalt deliberately in the name of dietary chic is to omit from the music of cookery the indispensable bass line over which all tastes and smells form their harmonies." -- Robert Farrar Capon
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Robert J. » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:54 am

O.k. folks, I really didn't mean to open that can of worms. But there is a lot of interesting information here so I ultimately got my answer. I just really wanted to save a little money. I could have done that without asking but now I have some sound advice from the pros. I'm really glad that a real farmer put in his $0.02, too.

Now, let's just all have a big group hug and get on with the fight. That is, if there is anything left to fight about.

rwj
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Jo Ann Henderson » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:37 am

let's just all have a big group hug and get on with the fight
SEE YOU IN THE RING!
"...To undersalt deliberately in the name of dietary chic is to omit from the music of cookery the indispensable bass line over which all tastes and smells form their harmonies." -- Robert Farrar Capon
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by JoePerry » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:46 am

This may be a dumb question, but don't the mass-production farms get huge subsidies that allow them to sell heads of lettuce for 12 cents? And aren’t subsidies funded through our taxes? If so, the inexpensive "conventional" produce isn't quite so inexpensive when you figure on paying for it twice.

Best,
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Bill Spencer

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Any particular reason ...

by Bill Spencer » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:47 am

%^)

... you obviously didn't read Dr. Buckner's original post on page 1 before your "communication [did] not come across as affable as I had intended" ? Although the ensuing discussion did remain civil, although barely, it could have ended up being a little more "affable" ...

Just my $0.02 ...

Looking forward to your future posts on varying subjects as we head off into the future !

Have a nice 4th !

Clink !

%^)
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Hoke » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:50 pm

Quote:
your underwear
Thou art full of assumptions!


I could happily assume the reverse.

Bill: Now, now, let it go. Jo Ann did liven up the exchange a bit afterall.

Sort of like when you squeeze a little lemon juice on a piece of fish... :)
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Stuart Yaniger » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:36 pm

In the words of the immortal John Smeaton, “You’re nae hitting the Polis mate, there’s nae chance.”
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Jo Ann Henderson » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:12 pm

Sort of like when you squeeze a little lemon juice on a piece of fish...
Thank you, Hoke. Your comment reminds me of a couple very special friends of mine. It's exactly the kind of thing they would say to me. In addition to being good cooks, they are also great dancers, and love to decorate. How about you? :wink:
"...To undersalt deliberately in the name of dietary chic is to omit from the music of cookery the indispensable bass line over which all tastes and smells form their harmonies." -- Robert Farrar Capon
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Thomas » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:33 pm

Jo Ann wrote:
Sort of like when you squeeze a little lemon juice on a piece of fish...
Thank you, Hoke. Your comment reminds me of a couple very special friends of mine. It's exactly the kind of thing they would say to me. In addition to being good cooks, they are also great dancers, and love to decorate. How about you? :wink:


JoAnn,

How would you have known, but before he defected to Cuba, Hoke was lead in the Moscow Ballet. When he got to Cuba he realized he had been 90 miles off course and so he danced his way to Miami on a cruise, which is where he had his first bottle of wine. The rest, as they say, is his-story...
Thomas P
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Bill Spohn » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:31 pm

This sort of discussion always generates lots of argument and feelings.

I am an old cynic. I believe that the yuppoid masses haven't got a frigging clue....period.

Case in point - our local fresh produce is largely generated by Chinese (and recently Vietnamese) businessmen. Some maintain both regular and 'organic' certified fields for production.

They probably wouldn't like me to tell you that far more goes out under 'organic' than was ever grown in the field certified as such, nor that I have seen the same produce being prepped in one barn with half getting organic labels and half the regular label. I suppose to be consistent they should put only the most insect ridden stuff in the organic boxes, but they didn't seem to bother or distinguish.

Face it - your average yuppie can just about read 2, maybe 3 words in a row before his/her lips get tired, and very very few of them have ever read through anything as long as the informative posts in this thread. All they do is shell out the big bucks for anything with the magic label on it, knowing only that it is supposed to be somehow a GOOD thing.

So I tend to just laugh whenever this old subject comes up - not to offend anyone that DOES take it seriously, that's your choice.
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Hoke » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:46 pm

Jo Ann:

Not everyone appreciates it when a sensitive guy takes that extra little effort. Sounds like you and I could just spend hours and hours watching HGTV and eating cookie-dough ice cream and just pouring our hearts out to each other!

Hmmm. Capon for your tag line. Interesting. :D
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Hoke » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:47 pm

Bill, I am Shocked! Shocked!! that this sort of activity goes on in the food industry. I just never imagined.
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Jo Ann Henderson » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:02 pm

Okay, fellas
I am ready to call it quits for the evening. This has been a tremendously fun couple of days -- thanks to all your marvelously funny, good humored, intellectual quips. It seems I have finally met my water level! Talk to you in another couple of days, another topic.
Jo
"...To undersalt deliberately in the name of dietary chic is to omit from the music of cookery the indispensable bass line over which all tastes and smells form their harmonies." -- Robert Farrar Capon
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Thomas » Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:24 am

Jo Ann wrote:Okay, fellas
I am ready to call it quits for the evening. This has been a tremendously fun couple of days -- thanks to all your marvelously funny, good humored, intellectual quips. It seems I have finally met my water level! Talk to you in another couple of days, another topic.
Jo


With all that salt, you need a lot of water...
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Speaking of dancers ...

by Bill Spencer » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:47 am

Jo Ann wrote:... they are also great dancers ...


%^)

My son, Grant, is a professional ballet dancer ... lives in the Bay Area and dances for Company C out of Walnut Creek ... started his career right out of high school with Sacramento Ballet ... after a few years went to work for a New York touring company called Les Trockadero Ballet de Monte Carlo ... toured the world hitting every continent but Antarctica and Africa ... got tired of living out of a suitcase and only being able to enjoy his Bay Area condo two weeks a year ... "hung up" his suitcase and went to work for Company C ... doesn't pay the bills like the Trock job did so also works as an Assistant Manager for a Starbucks, teaches ballet, and choreographs ballets for various smaller companies in the Bay Area ...

One happy son !

Clink !

%^)
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Napa is for auto parts, Paso is for wine !

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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Robert J. » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:47 pm

Bill Spohn wrote:This sort of discussion always generates lots of argument and feelings.

I am an old cynic. I believe that the yuppoid masses haven't got a frigging clue....period.

Case in point - our local fresh produce is largely generated by Chinese (and recently Vietnamese) businessmen. Some maintain both regular and 'organic' certified fields for production.

They probably wouldn't like me to tell you that far more goes out under 'organic' than was ever grown in the field certified as such, nor that I have seen the same produce being prepped in one barn with half getting organic labels and half the regular label. I suppose to be consistent they should put only the most insect ridden stuff in the organic boxes, but they didn't seem to bother or distinguish.

Face it - your average yuppie can just about read 2, maybe 3 words in a row before his/her lips get tired, and very very few of them have ever read through anything as long as the informative posts in this thread. All they do is shell out the big bucks for anything with the magic label on it, knowing only that it is supposed to be somehow a GOOD thing.

So I tend to just laugh whenever this old subject comes up - not to offend anyone that DOES take it seriously, that's your choice.


O.k. where is the proof of this? Not the yuppie part, I know that is true, but the produce part. Can you lead me in a direction to read about this for myself?

rwj
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Robin Garr » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:00 pm

Bill Spohn wrote:They probably wouldn't like me to tell you that far more goes out under 'organic' than was ever grown in the field certified as such, nor that I have seen the same produce being prepped in one barn with half getting organic labels and half the regular label.


As a barrister and an officer of the court, didn't you feel under any obligation to advise them to cease this lawbreaking, and/or report them to the appropriate authorities?
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Bill Spohn » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:03 pm

Robert J. wrote:O.k. where is the proof of this? Not the yuppie part, I know that is true, but the produce part. Can you lead me in a direction to read about this for myself?



The proof is that I just told you - you read it yourself from a primary source - me.

Are you one of those guys that doesn't believe anything unless you read about it on a webpage? :roll:

If you want someone else's first hand experience, you'll have to ask them for it.

If you want someone to research the internet for you seeking similar experiences I suggest that you do it yourself - I certainly don't have time to do it for you.

If I misunderstood you, I apologise, but your request seemed a bit bizarre to me under the circumstances.
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Bill Spohn » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:07 pm

Robin Garr wrote:
As a barrister and an officer of the court, didn't you feel under any obligation to advise them to cease this lawbreaking, and/or report them to the appropriate authorities?


A lawyer isn't a law enforcement officer, Robin. We counsel clients (that is, people that pay us for advice - few of us go around offering free advice and few people would value that sort anyway). If I saw a client engaging in this sort of behavious I would certainly advise them that they might get in trouble. If I saw a non-client doing the same thing I'd have no such obligation.

Generally, most of us shut up unless asked about something. The ones that don't give the rest of us a bad name! :wink:
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Robert J. » Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:12 pm

Bill Spohn wrote:
Robert J. wrote:O.k. where is the proof of this? Not the yuppie part, I know that is true, but the produce part. Can you lead me in a direction to read about this for myself?



The proof is that I just told you - you read it yourself from a primary source - me.

Are you one of those guys that doesn't believe anything unless you read about it on a webpage? :roll:

If you want someone else's first hand experience, you'll have to ask them for it.

If you want someone to research the internet for you seeking similar experiences I suggest that you do it yourself - I certainly don't have time to do it for you.

If I misunderstood you, I apologise, but your request seemed a bit bizarre to me under the circumstances.


Great. I believe you. What I don't believe is that you saw this and didn't report it to the proper authorities (as your post leads me to believe). Maybe no one would have cared but in my book, something like you described is a serious violation of, if not the law, then something.

Try not to be so testy.

rwj
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by JoePerry » Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:49 pm

Robert J. wrote:
Try not to be so testy.

rwj


Agree.
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Bill Spohn » Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:07 pm

Robert J. wrote:Great. I believe you. What I don't believe is that you saw this and didn't report it to the proper authorities (as your post leads me to believe). Maybe no one would have cared but in my book, something like you described is a serious violation of, if not the law, then something.

Try not to be so testy.



1- If I saw someone torturing puppies, I'd report it to appropriate authorities in an instant. When I see someone taking money from gullible yuppies I have zero impulse to report it to anyone. Obviously different people have different buttons that get pushed. The organic thing isn't one of mine.

2- I took your initial post to be questioning my veracity, hence the brusqueness of my reply. I think I explained that with an apology in advance if I were wrong.
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Robert J. » Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:26 pm

Apology accepted, though not necessary. I'm not offended. But seeing that it is very difficult to gauge someone's emotion over the web I think that comments should be worded very carefully.

As to your post, I would think that someone practicing economic dishonesty to that degree should be put out of business. I work in a service job that caters to yuppies. But I still practice honesty.

rwj
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Re: Ah but there already is a "middle ground" ...

by Paul Winalski » Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:36 pm

Bill Spohn wrote:If I saw someone torturing puppies, I'd report it to appropriate authorities in an instant. When I see someone taking money from gullible yuppies I have zero impulse to report it to anyone. Obviously different people have different buttons that get pushed. The organic thing isn't one of mine.


Nevertheless, what you describe is criminal fraud, even though it's yuppies rather than worthwhile people who are being taken for a ride. :twisted:

-Paul W.
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