Never Eats

Hi again Melissa,

I am more than well aware of the cruelties that occur in the huge meat production facilities, and if you'll skim my comments above you'll see that I have chosen to eat local because of this.

Indeed you did, and I failed to take that part of your post adequately on board. My apologies.

The issue at hand isn't just foie gras, though that's what initially caused me to start thinking about this stuff again. I didn't know that it isn't necessarily as cruel as it's made out to be by the lobbyists, so that was interesting to discover - though I still maintain that force feeding those birds just isn't a very natural practice. I'm all about letting the animals peck and scratch and forage and graze for themselves, doing what they were meant to do.

Hmm. Where to begin? I don't know if you're aware just how different the palmipeds ( as the French describe geese and ducks) are different from most other birds. Forgive me if I seem to be lecturing, but I suspect that even if you yourself know this, many others might not. So, they are different in that it is natural to them to gorge themselves - normally in the fall (and of course in the USA in the spring), just before they would - as do their wild cousins - take the long cross Atlantic migration. They are big and heavy birds, and if they are to survive the crossing without starving, or losing fuel, they HAVE to build up very large reserves of energy - in the form of fat. So even if left to themselves, they will gorge and gorge, and part of that excess food will be deposited in the liver. The liver is adapted to do this, so the "irreversiblly diseased liver" claim is nonsense. If you stop force feeding, the liver shrinks back to normal size and the bird will carry on as before. However, I freely accept that force feeding is taking their natural instinct a stage or two further.

I'd be the last to deny that it's "interventionist". But then, if we think about it, surely keeping any animal in captivity, feeding it a controlled diet to encourage it to put on muscle weight without too much fat (pigs) giving it barley instead of letting it eat grass (beef), feeding protein supplements and all the rest, is pretty interventionist as well. While factory farming takes this to a degree that we both find hard to swallow ( ) it's just as true for the way we feed and treat most domesticated animals. By that token, apart from game, New Zealand sheep and deer are allowed about the most natural existence of all our meat animals.

I'm very lucky, in that I live in a very rural part of France, and so I have relatively easy access to animals that are very well treated - and my goodness one can taste the difference. Every year, I get half a pig that has been raised for me by a local farmer - it is almost a pet, being allowed to ramble around the farm, rootle about in the fields and wood and generally live a very good life. I make a point of meeting it before it's slaughtered, not because I like to watch it die, but to remind myself of the harsh reality implicit in eating it. The same farmer raises chickens and again they are an order better than even the "free range" chickens available from most producers in the market. I am on first name terms with two local foie gras producers, and have a pretty good idea of the realities of their work.

I wish that more people could re-connect with the food chain upon which they depend. It is very salutary and - I can only speak for myself - makes a major change in the way we approach meat. Where I do have a real ethical problem is when I eat out. Just to what extent can I expect Gilberte in the neighbouring village to be meticulous over provenance for her meat, when she's producing a five course feast for €12?

[Robin Garr]

To everyone else, if I'm seeming preachy I really don't mean to be. Everyone is free to make their own decisions about what they eat and if you want to stuff your face with foie gras, power to you. Just please don't serve any to me.

No offense to Jeff or anyone else, Melissa, but I admire what you say, even as I confess to having sampled foie gras on occasion. I don't hear anything preachy in what you say.

Hi Ian - thanks so much for your well-balanced, tactfully presented opinion. I agree that to raise any animal in captivity is interventionist, so I guess it really just comes down to degrees: keeping chickens in a yard but letting them run around and eat the bugs and plants they find is one thing; keeping them caged in a one-by-one foot pen and feeding them a diet of genetically-modified grain is another. How far down the scale of intervention we're willing to go is a matter of personal opinion and we can only make that decision for ourselves.

I suppose my politics are showing quite plainly in this discussion, but I do believe that animals can have a "good life," as Ian suggests. While I don't necessarily think it's the same "goodness" as we humans understand that concept to be (i.e. a question of morality), I can't deny that well-treated animals do taste better than mass-production ones.

Every time I eat scallops I vomit.

Why is that..allergic? Too bad, they are delicious.

I don't think it's an actual allergy, but somebody on Chat (Mark Lipton?) suggested that some people do not have the ability to digest certain specific seafood proteins or fats. Yes, they are delicious going down.

Yep, that was me, Howie. Mollusks in particular (scallops, clams, oysters, cockles, etc.) have an ususual fatty acid structure that some folks have trouble digesting. Some of those with such a problem have also noted a synergistic interaction with alcohol in the liver that acts much like antabuse does, with regrettable results.

Mark Lipton

To address Melissa's original question: while I am willing to try almost any food set before me, I do draw the line (as Celia did) at whale and turtle meat. In general, I'd refuse to eat any animal on the endangered species list. Beyond that, I have no desire to eat fugu. I also doubt that, if offered it, I'd choose to eat dog, cat or horse, but thankfully I have not yet been given that Hobson's choice.

Mark Lipton

Even as a dedicated carnivore I cannot help but ponder on the thought that some life-form higher than our own might perceive us as not only edible but quite tasty. Being kind they would in turn, breed or or let us breed, and then supply us with all of our needs - let's say the foods and beverages of our choice, comfortable shelter, the means to get about, and whatever else, knowing all the time that no matter how kind they were that their entire goal was to one day take us to slaughter in order to provide them with the delicacies that their tables require.

Is there not something akin to our also being kind and raising cattle, sheep, chickens, even lobsters and fish and making sure that they spent their lives in comfort and ease until the day we slaughtered them. Such as we may kind masters, masters we remain and yes, slaughterers as well.

As I say, as a dedicated carnivore I am well aware of the dilemmas posed here and offer no response other than that we can rationalize and deny. How much I enjoy Lin Yu Tang's axiom to the effect that we should "give thanks and honor to the creatures on which we dine because they are about to become part of our bodies and being". That too of course is a rationalization.

Best
Rogov

P.S. On a possibly more humorous note, I know a chef who was once held hostage along with others at his luxurious African hotel for several hours by a group of rebels who came from a cannibalistic tribe. The chef was comforted somewhat when the rebel sitting with his AK-37 pointed at him, said that the chef need not worry because "white men taste bitter".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIufLRpJYnI

Jeff,
You read my mind. I was thinking of that exact Twilight Zone..To Serve Man.


JB

You're Welcome!

Eating meat is such a dilemma. I'm not a vegetarian, but I can understand why so many people end up going down that path. I choose to try and eat meat which I believe has had a decent life, but at the end of the day, I'm still eating an animal which has been bred and raised purely for my consumption. Is my desire that it had a good and happy life purely salving my conscience?

The raising of meat is a complicated issue, and rarely are decisions simple. Take the case of chickens. Battery chickens are bad - no question about it, and I never buy them. In fact, I even try not to eat chicken when I'm out because I know they're unlikely to be free range. But, I've recently read an interesting article which claims that chickens have quite a limited memory - they can only remember about 20 other birds. What that means is that a very large flock of free range chickens is also cruel, because every time a bird meets another, it needs to fight - to re-establish the pecking order. And as a result, most commercially raised free range chickens are de-beaked and de-spurred to stop them killing each other. Organic chickens are a separate issue, and often not allowed to free range at all, since it's hard to control all their feed and ensure that it's completely organic if they're out and about eating all sorts of stuff.

I've had cause to ponder all this recently with the addition to our family of our six hens. We have them in a large enclosure which is moved from bed to bed - so while they're not strictly free-ranging, they have lots of room to scratch around in the dirt and pick at greenery. They seem very happy, but they weren't laying eggs for a while. We found out that the reason for that is that we'd bought hybrid chickens - a cross of Rhode Island Reds and Whites. They've been bred specifically to lay, but will only do so if the protein in their diet exceeds 15 - 16%. We put a feeder in their dome, which allows them to eat as much or as little laying mash as they choose, and within a week we started getting eggs. The dilemma is this: if I left them to their own devices, they'd never lay - there's just not enough worms and bugs in the soil for our "Rolls Royce" chickens. Then they'd probably get sick and eggbound.

I understand what Melissa is saying - I too was hoping for completely naturally fed chickens and eggs, but it's just not going to happen with ISA browns. And now that the girls are in our family, there's no way we're going to give them up!

[Robin Garr]

I have removed part of a contentious, unrelated sub-thread to Friends & Fun, even though it was neither particularly friendly or much fun. Sorry about the hijacking of this thread ... let's see if we can drag it back onto its original, interesting topic.

I'd also be in the camp of not eating any endangered species (though I admit I'm not always up to date with the Monterey recs on seafood). Slightly surprised to see turtles singled out, as I actually thought they were primarily farmed.

I admit I find it slightly ridiculous to know people who "don't eat veal" (even "humanely raised" from local farms) yet happily eat mass produced chicken.

I don't believe there are any tribes that practice cannibalism in Africa, though magic-thinking cannibalism has been alleged in many movements/wars. In that case it is generally ritual and I would think taste has no part in the decision.

[James Roscoe]

I'm just glad to know I'm not the other white meat.

This is a most enlightening thread. I need to stop by this forum more often.

Melissa, you said this in your original post:

m also moving away from domesticated animals and towards wild ones - I'm not a hunter myself, but I love game and it just seems more natural to kill an animal quickly in its own environment, rather than culling them in a man-made compound.

So, if you're not a hunter, how do you get the game that you eat? From friends?

If you're referring to "game meats" on restaurant menus----then you need to rethink some of your thinking. That's not game. That's farm bred animals, same as the more traditional meat animals like cows and pigs. Matter of law and regulation: restaurants aren't allowed to serve wild game.

Now, 'free range', that's a different thing. Although I have been led to believe that some of the producers are 'bending the rules' their way to define what that means.

Mind you, I'm not criticizing or commenting on your ethical/moral stance in this issue, I'm merely pointing out that unless you or someone you know shoots it yourself, then butchers it yourself, it ain't gonna be "wild".

Melissa, you said this in your original post:

m also moving away from domesticated animals and towards wild ones - I'm not a hunter myself, but I love game and it just seems more natural to kill an animal quickly in its own environment, rather than culling them in a man-made compound.

So, if you're not a hunter, how do you get the game that you eat? From friends?

If you're referring to "game meats" on restaurant menus----then you need to rethink some of your thinking. That's not game. That's farm bred animals, same as the more traditional meat animals like cows and pigs. Matter of law and regulation: restaurants aren't allowed to serve wild game.

Now, 'free range', that's a different thing. Although I have been led to believe that some of the producers are 'bending the rules' their way to define what that means.

Mind you, I'm not criticizing or commenting on your ethical/moral stance in this issue, I'm merely pointing out that unless you or someone you know shoots it yourself, then butchers it yourself, it ain't gonna be "wild".

I get my wild meat from a couple family members that go hunting regularly, so the meat is about as wild as you can get. I'm also ok with buying the elk meat sold by a couple at a local farmer's market - while they do raise the elk on a farm, they are free range, which I'm told means they can roam around within a fairly large area. They also don't use any fillers or preservatives in their elk sausage, and it is delicious. So yes, I guess their elk farm is bending the rules of what wild means, but it's still a far cry from the giant beef plants.

[Jenise]

If you're referring to "game meats" on restaurant menus----then you need to rethink some of your thinking. That's not game. That's farm bred animals, same as the more traditional meat animals like cows and pigs. Matter of law and regulation: restaurants aren't allowed to serve wild game.

Are you sure that's true in Alberta? I saw a lot of "wild" game on menus in Calgary and Banff.

Jenise, pretty sure that I remember that it is Canadian federal law (as it is in US).

When we were in Chile last year, "wild boar" featured on several menus. The meat was from farm-raised animals bred from wild boar taken from the wild and bred in captivity. I think there was some cross breeding with domestic pigs, as well. We visited a farm where wild boar were being bred and saw numbers of little striped wild boar piglets in pens with sows that were clearly a domestic breed. Didn't get the opportunity to ask about it. We did learn, though, that the wild boar populations living in the wild are afflicted with various parasites that make eating them undesirable.

Wild boar are quite common in Israel. Interestingly, although precisely the same breed, one has to prepare those from the dessert regions (especially the Negev) and the mountainous areas (especially the Upper Galilee). Reason is quite simple...in the dessert the wild boars have to travel very large distances in order to find the root vegetables on which they thrive and in the Galilee those vegetables are readily available throughout the region. This in turn means that the dessert boars are far more muscular and have less fat.

The hunting of wild boars is legal within Israel so long as one has a license and those are given only sparingly to those who can be trusted beyond question not to merely wound and not then track and "finish" the animal. What is interesting is that it is illegal then to sell the meat either in butcher shops or in restaurants. Arab Christians and Jews who hunt are not all that stupid though, so what happens is that you go to a restaurant specializing in game food and there you pay for the vegetables, bread, napkins etc, etc and the meat is served "on the house". As to butchers (primarily in Arab towns and cities with a large Christian population) they wil be glad to sell you enough beef say for one hamburger, charge you let's say the equivalent of US$ 50 for that bit of chopped beef and then give you a gift of anywhere from 7 - 10 kilos of boar (the amount depending on the cuts you want). In other words....don't mess with those among the Israelis who want to feast on wild boar.

As to parasites (including trichinosis), before parting with his/her catch every self-respecting hunter in the country sends a cut of the liver and a blood sample to one of the laboratories in Haifa to have those tested for any possible diseases. If buying truly illegally (that is to say smuggled in from Jericho or other parts of the Palestinian Aurthority) purchasers are always wise to take a sample of the meat to their local HMO and pay someone a few shekels to test the meat for possible parasites.

Best
Rogov

[Jenise]

Eating meat is such a dilemma. I'm not a vegetarian, but I can understand why so many people end up going down that path. I choose to try and eat meat which I believe has had a decent life, but at the end of the day, I'm still eating an animal which has been bred and raised purely for my consumption. Is my desire that it had a good and happy life purely salving my conscience?

The raising of meat is a complicated issue, and rarely are decisions simple.

Celia, you elucidated the dilemma beautifully. I've chased myself, and my conscience, around in circles trying to find a perfect solution, and there really isn't one. The simple truth is that most of us don't live within a five minute walk of a Garden of Eden (though it seems you come close), so admirable goals like eating local have certain limits both in terms of what's available and how much fossil fuels must be burned to gather them. You and Pete are a shining example of how much two people can do to make/provide their own food supply.

Oh Jenise, you're kind, thank you. But we're only just at the very beginning of the journey. Hopefully in a year or so the garden will be fully established, and we can be a bit more sustainable. Although apart from eggs, it doesn't really solve our meat concerns. Though I have convinced our local butcher to switch totally to free range pork, so now all our pork, bacon, ham etc are all FR. Very happy about that!

The Foie Gras thing is really understandable. While I do eat it, I'm not fond of the processing technique and try to limit my consumption. I'm the same way as you when it comes shark fin soup, for similar reasons.

I also can't stand eating oysters or any similarly slimy seafoods, no matter how fresh they may be. They just give me a feeling of nauseousness that's impossible to overcome.

And some other exotic eats to put on the list (tried once, but would never do it again): fried grasshoppers and lamb eyeballs.

[Jenise]

fried grasshoppers and lamb eyeballs.

Not sure I want to know, but where in the world did you run into those things? Doesn't sound very Glendalian to me!

The mention of "internal parts" calls to mind a meal.

Until about a decade ago the restaurant named Pini BaChatzer (Pini being the nickname of the owner, BaChatzer meaning more or less "in the garden") was a well beloved landmark in Jerusalem and the specialties of the house were all kinds of internal parts and organs.

In 1992, on my honeymoon in Jerusalem (we started in Spain during the Catholic holy week, then went to Israel for the Pesach/Easter holy week), we had dinner at an Argentine grill. Among the various cuts of meat was sheep intestines. Grilled sheep's intestines. Well... They were pretty tasty, though filled with some non-descript "stuff".

I think the mixed grill also has kidney, brain, and various normal meats.

I'm a big fan of offal - especially sweetbreads, liver and foie gras, the occasional brain.

I've eaten a fish eyeball - mainly just to gross out my dining companion. It was like biting into a piece of chalk.

I don't eat certain animals - for cultural reasons - not because I have an objection to eating animals.

There are things I just do not like from the veggie kingdom. It doesn't matter which ones - everybody can name something they don't like.

I won't eat chemicalled-up food - stuff laden with artificial flavors and food science experiments. Nothing with Aspartame, Saccharin, Sucralose, etc. The idea of eating a faked food that is supposed to allow dieters to pretend they are eating something that is tasty and good for them not only offends me, it makes me gag. The idea that people can trick themselves into eating healthier by pumping themselves full of industrial chemistry experiments is just sick. Sick.