Never Eats

most of that stuff houses and/or extracts waste from the body

Oh, yes, like brains, hearts, thymus glands....

I have promised myself that I am not going to argue with you -- or anyone -- about foie gras anymore but I will state my position: it is good food.

[Robin Garr]

to me it just doesn't seem like a good idea to eat the guts - most of that stuff houses and/or extracts waste from the body.

Normally I would agree, but I have to make one exception for andouillettes, which is essentially a French chitlin' sausage. Whenever I've had them in France, I've been awestruck ... usually served au naturel, once in a wacky pasta sauce with Roquefort, and always amazing with Burgundy.

I might make another exception for menudo, too, served in a hole-inna-wall taqueria on a Saturday morning.

Normally, though, I've got to agree that eating intestines isn't a choice I'd usually make.

most of that stuff houses and/or extracts waste from the body

Oh, yes, like brains, hearts, thymus glands....

Note I said "most" - not "all".

Normally I would agree, but I have to make one exception for andouillettes, which is essentially a French chitlin' sausage. Whenever I've had them in France, I've been awestruck ... usually served au naturel, once in a wacky pasta sauce with Roquefort, and always amazing with Burgundy.

I might make another exception for menudo, too, served in a hole-inna-wall taqueria on a Saturday morning.

Normally, though, I've got to agree that eating intestines isn't a choice I'd usually make.

I've also had some excellent tripe dishes in Italian restaurants.

[Robin Garr]

I've also had some excellent tripe dishes in Italian restaurants.

And now that I think about it, some excellent hot-and-spicy tripe dim sum!

most of that stuff houses and/or extracts waste from the body

Oh, yes, like brains, hearts, thymus glands....

Note I said "most" - not "all".

Pick an animal. Assay the organs. What is "most"?

most of that stuff houses and/or extracts waste from the body

Oh, yes, like brains, hearts, thymus glands.....

My son, the family plant and animal scientist recommends staying away from any of the filtration organs. I enjoy heart and tongue which are really muscles and I cheat because I just love chopped liver! When they were available I used to really enjoy lambs kidneys grilled and served with a little chimichurri atop. I was served brains once and just couldn't do it although I think I have probably eaten them in raviolis.

Hi,

In our local foie gras farm, when we went to find out for ourselves just how cruel or otherwise the gavage was, the animals were a lot more stressed by our presence than the force feeding. It is a fact (even if inconvenient for the anti-foie gras lobby) that it is impossible to introduce the feeding tube into the throat of an animal that won't accept it.

However, this is only true in the case of small scale craftsman produced foie gras. I wouldn't support or defend industrially produced foie gras - but then I don't support or defend industrially produced pork, ducks or chickens.

I suspect that if Melissa were to see just how cruelly pigs are treated in the big pork factories and how appalling the conditions are in the chicken, duck and turkey batteries, she might be more than a little shocked.

I have to say that I find it very odd - if not somewhat perverse - that cruelty in the mass production of mediocre meats cheaply is generally acceptable in our cultures, while we criticise what we perceive as cruelty in the production of excellence.

As for offal. I can't abide tripe in any of its manifestations, but will eat any of the other meats (with the possible exception of eyeballs and Balut) with pleasure. A perfectly grilled lamb's kidney is a delight to me. Scrambled eggs with calf's brain is one of the great Hungarian specialities that deserves much wider discovery, IMO. One of the really sad side effects of the whole BSE business is that one can no longer suck the spinal cord out of a lamb chop, because butchers are now obliged to remove it before selling it.

However, I do confess that I would hesitate before crunching down on insects.

Believe me, I've tried, but I really can't stand the sometimes subtle, sometimes not so much, aroma of tripe in any of it's culinary manifestations. Menudo? Nope, it makes me gag. Ditto for Andouille sausage. It's that "cow shit" smell that is plainly in it, no matter how they try to mask it with chiles, herbs or whatever. I also don't like big, gloppy raw oysters, although I've enjoyed the tiny briny ones. One other thing I positively hate is that awful concoction you get at chain restaurants called "vegetable medley" which is largely composed of big chunks of zucchini squash. I'm also not inclined to eat animal body parts that in our culture are considered non-food--that includes chicken feet, pigs feet and fish heads, all of which are considered delicacies in some other cultures.

If we're broadening out the discussion to stuff you wouldn't eat simply because you don't fancy the look/taste/feel/smell of it, there's probably quite a lot I'd have to list.

I have no moral objection to eating offal. I enjoy liver, kidneys and tongue, but won't come at brains, tripe or chitterlings on account of the texture. Then there's Scotland's uber-offalic dish, haggis. A good haggis is enjoyable; a bad haggis is disgusting - and that's often to do with the texture as much as anything, although many a bad haggis I've tried to eat has been ruined by tasting strongly of Bonox, Bisto or some other cheap and nasty beef extract or gravy mix.

Eyeballs? No thanks.

I actually think if this discussion is on moral and ethical grounds, then we really should adopt the Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall/River Cottage approach and try and eat every bit of the animal. After all, if an animal has to die so we can eat, are we really justified in wasting any part of it?

Growing up Chinese, there's very little of the "regular" domestic animals that we didn't eat - chicken's feet and heads, brains, tripe, pig's intestines and ears, you name it. I didn't like it all, but I certainly respect the ideology of not wasting any of it.

Agree with Ian on the foie gras thing too - I've watched with interest shows on how the geese are forcefed, and they don't seem terribly traumatised. I remember Chef Carey once telling me that geese don't have a gag reflex. I'm far more concerned about battery chickens and pigs, and we only ever buy free range in both of those. Thankfully in Australia, space is still so abundant that our beef and lamb is still all grazed.

As many may have gathered, I am not a "joiner" and avoid memberships in various groups much as I would avoid the bubonic plague. Referring to Robin's post above, however, I am such a devotee of andouillettes that I am actually a member in good standing of the AAAAA - that is to say l'Association Amicale des Amateurs d'Andouillette Authentique.

And so much can I enjoy inner parts that I am one of the few non-Greek born people who actually adores kokoretsi.

Best
Rogov

[Jenise]

I have to say that I find it very odd - if not somewhat perverse - that cruelty in the mass production of mediocre meats cheaply is generally acceptable in our cultures, while we criticise what we perceive as cruelty in the production of excellence.

Very very well put.

I have not always so successfully resisted the urge to take on someone in a group at a restaurant who looks at the menu and loudly proclaims "I don't eat veal". They can never, it seems, just live the conviction and quietly concentrate on the other ten menu items they DO eat, no no, they have to say it, put their correctness out there for the rest of us to admire or feel belittled by. Now I have no objection to their objecting to cruelty, I just want them to be informed about the sad conditions provided for most animals raised for slaughter and I usually end up suggesting that it makes more sense to either eat it all or become a vegetarian than selectively take a stand on veal.

If you are curious enough to re-read that article, please post on the Culinary Side of my portion of the forum and I will be glad to post it there.

Best
Rogov

You have to be kidding...

One only has to review your posts and responses to other posts over a short period of time to see that you have an almost insatiable desire to constantly enhance your own image. You critique, criticize and embellish other posters comments to that end. I think it is very clever of you to quickly research a current topic in the forum and then massage the data and present it in such a way that it appears to be a total recall from your memory.

You told me once that you have a strong disdain for other members on your forum and enjoy taking them down a notch or two. Once again to enhance your own image and to show that you are far more knowledgeable on almost any subject than they are.

Frankly I am bored and disgusted with your tactics. Fortunately you are not inflicting any pain on me lately with
dissertations that read like the history of WW2 in ten parts.

I am still seething over your recent FACT FINDING MISSION on my drinking comment. You stepped way over the line buddy on that one. For as long as you have been posting on these boards you should know that it is difficult to explain all the nuisances on a post especially on a post on a stupid poll question. Your comments and conclusions (supported by your three doctors... by the way do they sing also) was based on false assumptions that you made in what has to be, in my opinion, one of the worst analytic efforts in history. Foaming at the mouth you set out to clobber me with one small
statement in hand. As a result I have now had to hang out my lifestyle laundry for everyone to see.

First you did not take into consideration the fact that I almost never have a cocktail during the winter months between
November through March. Perhaps one cocktail during that period. I will have a shot of Frangelico sometimes
to offset the cold and snowy nights.

Second you did not take into consideration as to when I have a cocktail. You made the false assumption that I had a bunch of cocktails all at once. Not the case at all. I may have a couple of bloody mays in the late morning when I am on the deck potting plants or taking care of them. I then will have a light lunch and then a nap. After that I will have a cup
of coffee and then work for a number of hours on whatever happens to be outstanding. Later on in the early evening after the sun goes down I might return to the deck for another cocktail. Most business men would no doubt drink me under the table.

Third and lastly, you did not take into consideration that I am constantly monitoring my drinking and making adjustments. For example I am finally losing some weight that I gained during the winter. I have been around long enough to know that when you lose that much weight over a short period of time the alcohol will affect you harder and quicker so for now I have set a new limit on the number of drinks I have.

In short I do not need you to apply labels to my lifestyle or provide unnecessary input when you are not asked to do so.
Frankly I find your consumption of food to be obscene if not downright glutenous. Also, the arithmetic is a bit of mystery to me when you boast of your bar hopping exploits when you are in Paris when the number of bars you hop to and from exceeds the declared number of drinks you say you have each day.

In any case I do not want to cause Robin any grief here so I think it best for me just to fade away or at least to limit my involvement here and perhaps just to post when I see a subject that is very interesting to me. I certainly do not have any desire to spend whatever time I have left before I exit this planet dueling with you over nonsense. In my book, right now, you are just one more freaking wine critic... nothing more than that.

Tim

Tim,

Considering that it was you who posted to the effect that you average 2 - 3 cocktails daily in addition to 10 glasses of wine (which comes two bottles daily), you may use the defense mechanisms of rationalization and denial as you like regardless of what various medical people or others may say. That is your privilege.

As to whatever you might think of me, that is also your privilege. If indeed you are weary of me, you have the most valid option of not reading me. Beyond that, I will not enter into a public pissing match with you.

Rogov

I actually think if this discussion is on moral and ethical grounds, then we really should adopt the Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall/River Cottage approach and try and eat every bit of the animal. After all, if an animal has to die so we can eat, are we really justified in wasting any part of it?

Growing up Chinese, there's very little of the "regular" domestic animals that we didn't eat - chicken's feet and heads, brains, tripe, pig's intestines and ears, you name it. I didn't like it all, but I certainly respect the ideology of not wasting any of it.

Agree with Ian on the foie gras thing too - I've watched with interest shows on how the geese are forcefed, and they don't seem terribly traumatised. I remember Chef Carey once telling me that geese don't have a gag reflex. I'm far more concerned about battery chickens and pigs, and we only ever buy free range in both of those. Thankfully in Australia, space is still so abundant that our beef and lamb is still all grazed.

Nice summary of my feelings! I've seen the FG geese gather for the feeding, seems a lot more humane to me that factory chickens.

Of course, that's colored by the fact I like FG, as well as pretty much every organ meat. Tripe (Roman style is great, but Pho with tripe is my favorite prep), liver, heart, kidneys, etc. Sweetbreads are probably my favorite. Tongue, tendon - yum! I've never had mammal eyeball (I have had fish), but would try it.

But I never eat dessert.

Tim,
I will not enter into a public pissing match with you.

Rogov

Very well said. What a pity that he couldn't find it within himself to debate the issues instead of making ad hominem attacks. To be honest, I'm surprised the posts weren't moderated.

=======
I've never been one who finds myself grossed out by the idea of eating one part of an animal as opposed to another. As Celia put it so eloquently, and using language I've almost used verbatim, if an animal must die that we may eat it, then it seems to me that it behoves us to waste none of it. I don't go as far as she does (which I admire enormously) in eating things which invoke a gag reflex in me, but I do eat as much as I can, and try to waste as little as possible.

If Melissa - as the OP - will permit me, I do believe that the morality/ethicality of meat eating is important and would like to see the discussion focus more on that than on individual likes or dislikes based on personal taste. To come back to Rogov's point about Andouilettes. He likes 'em, I hate 'em, and that's about as far as we can go. However I'm sure that we can find some kind of common ground over the way in which the animals were raised and slaughtered.

To me, eating meat is only moral if we are prepared to TRY to take responsibility for how the animals lived and/or died. The very great problem of the meat supply chain, it seems to me, is that we are so distanced from the realities, that we can (and all too often - do) forget what lies behind that "special offer" slab of pork, or that BOGOF chicken in the cut price store down the road. I DO accept that some people are so poor that they can't afford to be squeamish, but all too often. it's more a matter of priorities (new computer, better holiday vs eating ethically raised meat) than of outright poverty.

To come back to foie gras, yes, I've seen ducks being force fed, shake down their feathers and rush off to join the back of the queue. An odd reaction if the process were as cruel as PETA claim. I'd gladly support ANY legislation that either banned industrial fg production or [insisted on] (added for clarity) the clear labelling of the product so that we may know how it was produced - especially if it was also applied to the production of other meats.

[Robin Garr]

In any case I do not want to cause Robin any grief here so I think it best for me just to fade away or at least to limit my involvement here and perhaps just to post when I see a subject that is very interesting to me. I certainly do not have any desire to spend whatever time I have left before I exit this planet dueling with you over nonsense. In my book, right now, you are just one more freaking wine critic... nothing more than that.

Tim, when I saw your "lying sack of crap" remark initially, I shrugged it off on the assumption that you and Rogov were old friends and that you were engaging in jovial barroom banter.

Upon reading this screed, I think you out yourself as a man with an agenda. Your analysis of Rogov differs so greatly from my long-time impression of this good man, and goes so far beyond the bounds of civility that I expect in this forum, that I'm inclined to agree with you (edit: About your plan to "fade away").

I have very, very rarely banned anyone from this forum. I think the numbers can be counted on the fingers of two hands and possibly one. But to be honest, Tim, this point inclines me to hasten your departure if you don't choose to make it on your own ... or to apologize in a civilized fashion and guarantee me that I won't need to deliver this lecture again.

[Robin Garr]

To be honest, I'm surprised the posts weren't moderated.

Hi, Ian.

I do have a minimalist intervention policy on the forum, one with which I know Rogov concurs. Best not to censor as authoritarians but to count on the good will and good sense of the community to keep things in line.

That said, much of this train wreck seems to have occurred while I was sleeping and breakfasting on US Eastern Daylight Time. I've weighed in now, and I hope this discussion will die off gracefully and that our community position on civility is clear to all.

Wotcha Robin,

To be honest, I'm surprised the posts weren't moderated.

I do have a minimalist intervention policy on the forum, one with which I know Rogov concurs

And for what it's worth, so do I. I'm glad you've made your "shot across the bows" and hope, with you, that it suffices.

I've been involved in various discussions about foie gras, and it is true that it is a topic which can generate a great deal of heat. I'd half expected it, though I hope that people here are sufficiently civilized to discuss the issues and not to descend to personalities.

Anyway, 'nuff said.

[Jenise]

Whew, the things that happens while one sleeps!

Whew, the things that happens while one sleeps!

I hear ya, Jenise! Interesting to see that this topic has caused such heated debate! But I suppose that where ethics and morality are concerned, passions roil just under the surface.

If Melissa - as the OP - will permit me, I do believe that the morality/ethicality of meat eating is important and would like to see the discussion focus more on that than on individual likes or dislikes based on personal taste.

Please let's do - I would like to go back and address some of these issues that have arisen.

I suspect that if Melissa were to see just how cruelly pigs are treated in the big pork factories and how appalling the conditions are in the chicken, duck and turkey batteries, she might be more than a little shocked.

I am more than well aware of the cruelties that occur in the huge meat production facilities, and if you'll skim my comments above you'll see that I have chosen to eat local because of this. The issue at hand isn't just foie gras, though that's what initially caused me to start thinking about this stuff again. I didn't know that it isn't necessarily as cruel as it's made out to be by the lobbyists, so that was interesting to discover - though I still maintain that force feeding those birds just isn't a very natural practice. I'm all about letting the animals peck and scratch and forage and graze for themselves, doing what they were meant to do.

Ok, and I have to just make one final comment on Tim's outburst at Rogov - Tim, I think you'd do better at the Wine Berserkers forum. They seem to feed off publicly denouncing each other over there.

I'm all about letting the animals peck and scratch and forage and graze for themselves, doing what they were meant to do.

"Meant" by whom? If a chicken has such meaning, then, please do tell me what I am "meant" to do? How about everybody else?

I think your language reflects an anthropomorphized view of animals and a simplistic, impractical, hype-tainted ethic. I think you espouse a position born of easy luxury and ignorance, with a dash of haughty one-upsmanship and finger-wagging in the deal.

(( Sorry, Jenise, I really tried. ))

I'm all about letting the animals peck and scratch and forage and graze for themselves, doing what they were meant to do.

"Meant" by whom? If a chicken has such meaning, then, please do tell me what I am "meant" to do? How about everybody else?

I think your language reflects an anthropomorphized view of animals and a simplistic, impractical, hype-tainted ethic. I think you espouse a position born of easy luxury and ignorance, with a dash of haughty one-upsmanship and finger-wagging in the deal.

(( Sorry, Jenise, I really tried. ))

I know this is a philosophical discussion of sorts, but I wonder if you're reading too much into my words. By "meant" I tried to convey that animals should be left to do what they would do without any human involvement. Perhaps it was a poor word choice. Perhaps I am anthropomorphizing animals. Perhaps I am espousing a position born of easy luxury and ignorance, with a dash of haughty one-upmanship and finger-wagging. I'm sorry you feel this way, but clearly nothing I could say would make you change the viewpoint that you've so clearly declared for yourself, so I'll simply leave off by quoting Rogov: I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you.

To everyone else, if I'm seeming preachy I really don't mean to be. Everyone is free to make their own decisions about what they eat and if you want to stuff your face with foie gras, power to you. Just please don't serve any to me.