Doggie bags outside the U.S.-yes or no?

Sorry, Jeff, I don't get arrogance, just being plain incorrect. Or using the terms in a different sense than I would. For me, a culinary capital is a place where I can get great food with a local distinctiveness at nearly any restaurant up and down the fanciness chain. In a place like Alba (for example), I can look at three or four places, pick one, and have astonishingly delicious food in totally unpretentious surroundings. I haven't hit many duds. In London, though I might find a fine meal for $1000 and a ton of attitude, picking a place just walking around is almost certain to get you something between mediocre and horrible.

I've been to numerous Chinese and Indian places there where the food was astoundingly boring. And as someone smarter than me once observed, it's not because British chefs can't do any better, this is actually the way they intend the food to come out.

My highest end experience was MoMo, where the pricetag made my nose bleed, the service policies inconvenient and annoying, and food that was merely OK. I was taken to one excellent Indian restaurant last year, but it was the first out of maybe twenty that had any imagination in its menu or any freshness in the ingredients. Bland, sweet, and predictable seems to be the rule.

I lived in London for 17 years

That explains it. Probably ruined your dental work, too.

Culinary capitals? IME, San Francisco, Hong Kong, Lyon, Strasbourg, Alba, Florence, Turin. For non-local cuisine, New York and Paris.

Among Bad Food Countries, Vienna.

From your list, only SF and NYC even able to approach the variety of ethnic cuisine available in London, all the rest pretty much mono-cusininstic, and LOL, if that's not a hyphenated word it should be!
With all due respect, it's fair to point out that the validity of your rating and evaluation of any city's cuisine is a little suspect as you don't eat 90% of it.
Thank you for your concern over my choppers--happy to report they're lined up all in a row, and such a nice shade of white, and ready to chomp!

This is a little off the subject but we've just come back from a trip to Europe. I would like to comment on how dogs are treated in Istanbul & Prague. In Istanbul dogs run free in packs of three up to six or seven throughout areas outdoors of the city. Many of the dogs have been captured, neutered and released, you can tell by the pin in one of their ears. I saw none that appeared to be vicious but our guide whom we had hired said she could not allow her two small children to play in their small local park unattended because of the dogs. In Prague one must always walk the streets paying close attention to where you walk because the local dogs are allowed to defecate any place they so desire and there is no such thing as a pooper scooper and proper receptacle. You really have to be careful when it's raining. (These are not wild dogs) My brother who is living there until spring said he would rather criticize the local inhabitant's mothers than their dogs. Local culture but still very disconcerting when you're there.

Which brings me to, curious, why Rogov wouldn't you dream of taking leftover food away with you in France or Italy? Is it the resto owner/server disapproval, condescension or air of superiority toward any diner who wants to take leftovers, that puts you off?
I view it as a compliment to the chef and resto that I'd want to take the remainder of the food to enjoy later and would hope that even the haughtiest Frenchman/woman would understand that.

Shel, Hi.....

I'm not the least bit concerned with owner/server disapproval, I only feel superior to those people who are inferior even though they are capable of not being so (actuallly I scorn those people), and I condescend only to royalty in my behavior in their presence (which does not happen very often). I am, however, a somewhat old fashioned person in some ways and do believe that in Rome one should do as the Romans do unless it offends one's own personal moral or aesthetic sense.

I do not believe by the way that chefs take it as a compiment when you take food away. After all, the chef knows that his meat is going to chill, his sauce curdles, his salad wilt and that when re-heated they will be little more than poor shadows of themselves.

As a potential confession - some years ago when visiting a steak house in Atlanta, Georgia, I found myself filled to my momentary limit with half of a gorgeoous porterhouse left on my plate. Having seen others in the restaurant take away food, I asked that the remaining steak be sliced and packed for me. On the way back to my hotel I found a good bakery, purchased a baguette, found a grocery store and purchased some mayonnaise (alas jarred, but no way to make my own) and the next morning feasted on a marvelous steak sandwich. I would not have done that in Paris, Milano or Jerez.

Best
Rogov

Thanks Daniel, you presented that well and I fully understand your POV, and that is a ggod point about reheating well-prepared food as it'll never be as optimum as when served. But on the other hand, it'll still taste damn good!

In Japan "doggie bags" are a definite no.

[David M. Bueker]

Well I certainly hope Jeff and Shel can relax and have a glass of wine.

I have been to the UK on business many times in the last 2 years, and the food has been uniformly terrible (with two minor exceptions).

Shel - you defend London with the word variety. That's not the same thing as quality.

I would certainly put NYC & Paris far above London in terms of food quality, just to name two cities. Heck I would put Figeac, France above London in terms of food quality. Variety, not so much.

As for taking leftovers away - it's impossible on business travel.

And nobody I know (or the servers) calls them doggie bags anymore. Usually it's "would you like me to pack that up for you?"

Well I certainly hope Jeff and Shel can relax and have a glass of wine.

I have been to the UK on business many times in the last 2 years, and the food has been uniformly terrible (with two minor exceptions).

Shel - you defend London with the word variety. That's not the same thing as quality.

I would certainly put NYC & Paris far above London in terms of food quality, just to name two cities. Heck I would put Figeac, France above London in terms of food quality. Variety, not so much.

As for taking leftovers away - it's impossible on business travel.

And nobody I know (or the servers) calls them doggie bags anymore. Usually it's "would you like me to pack that up for you?"

Like I said earlier in this thread, David, guess that's why we have horse races.
No, didn't specifically use the word 'quality', but certainly implied it.
In your opinion, dining out in London sucks, bad meals apparently abound, more the rule than the exception...your opinion and you're entitled to it. Yes it's 180 from mine, so be it.

[Jenise]

I have not heard "doggie bag" used for taking leftover food home for a very long time. In Redding, they are refered to as "take home box". Or they ask "will you be taking the rest home?" Some restaurants bring the box to you. Others take the food away and bring it back in the box. Personally, I'm glad they don't refer to "doggie bag" anymore. I never did bring it home to my dog....it was for us humans to eat for lunch the next day. Those white bags often leaked and made a mess. In fact, some of the better restaurants here are using a black box to put the take home food into. A little more classy.

Funny that this comes up now. On Thursday we went out for dinner and ordered rotisserie chicken. Neither of us could finish our half chicken and the waiter automatically boxed it up. I neither asked for it nor objected, just didn't think of it one way or the other except to say that I missed the old insulated foil doggy bags of my childhood, most of which were the remnants of my parents' evening out at some swanky 'Continental' style restaurant typical of those days and which would often contain a suitable breakfast for little Jenise--leftover prime rib often enough, or on better days, crab-stuffed abalone steak or half a lobster shell full of a sublime Thermidor. All of which I would eat cold.

[David M. Bueker]

Shel - I said the UK. Dining out in the UK does suck. London does not make the UK. I've had decent but not great experiences in London.

I missed the old insulated foil doggy bags of my childhood, most of which were the remnants of my parents' evening out at some swanky 'Continental' style restaurant typical of those days and which would often contain a suitable breakfast for little Jenise--leftover prime rib often enough, or on better days, crab-stuffed abalone steak or half a lobster shell full of a sublime Thermidor. All of which I would eat cold.

Let me guess - you especialy liked the tinfoil swans and such, right? I remember those! Some restaurants used to get quite creative with them.

Shel - I said the UK. Dining out in the UK does suck. London does not make the UK. I've had decent but not great experiences in London.

Sorry about your "UK" experiences, but "uniformly bad" covers a lot of territory and as applied to the States, I suspect that outside locations like NYC, New Orleans, SF etc., you'd better keep that pack of Rolaids handy for relief from a bunch of bad dining experiences.
But that's probably better debated in a separate thread.
I'm glad you've had "decent" dining in London, and hope that someday you'll be led to the "exceptional".

David B,

I'm sorry, I just can't resist this here. You probably recognize Shel's ploy here, it's the old Pig Farmer's Defense. It's usually taught in first year law school, or even a High School public speaking courses for a debate team segment. The tactic is one of last resort, used to defend minority opinions in the face of overwhelming contrary testimony, especially in cases of subjective and emotional material.

I'm lifting and abbreviating text from of my Dad's old set of lecturer's notes (ca. 1948) simply because he writes much better than I:

"Some folks will deny a pig farm smells bad universally and will politely acknowledge your right to think that it does smell bad. This perspective however, once identified to listeners, rarely produces particularly compelling arguments, and yields little development of productive, realistic dialogue with other people. The perspective usually comes from those committed to, and frequently immersed in, the particular point of view, namely those unable to see beyond their own muck (situation) to any extent. Luckily for the rest of us, the pig farm itself has strong and unmistakeable traits, and the Pig Farmer's tactic is easily overwhelmed once identified. This tactic can be only somewhat effective when used as a last resort, and even then, effective only when used against an unprepared mind. Expose it for what it is: weak, biased, and desperate".

I'd argue that there are a lot of superb regional cuisines scattered widely among the states. You mention NY (which really doesn't have a distinct local cuisine, but does others well), New Orleans, and SF, but really, one can include Chicago, Santa Fe, Boston, and several more I've missed as great regional food cities. Southwestern, Gulf Coast, Pacific Rim, New England, these are all regions that have wonderful local cuisines. I'd suspect that if I were a porkophile, Southern and barbeque cooking might be more appealing to me, but to most of the world, that's excellent eatin'.

So, no, I don't think one can reasonably describe American dining as "uniformly bad" or even "nearly uniformly bad." There's more good food to be had here in more different places than anyplace else in the world with the exceptions of Italy and China.

LOL Jeff, pig farmer's ploy indeed--so much verbiage for so little content, and the total equals BS...or should that be pig sh*t! But well done, whether you are or not, spoken like a true lawyer.

Sorry Stuart, guess I didn't make myself clear. There is wonderful cuisine or whatever you want to call it all over the country, much of which I've had the privilege of experiencing first-hand.
What I was trying to say is that in many places in the U.S., like the UK, great dining or great places to dine are not a priority and can be as difficult to find as Bigfoot.

[David M. Bueker]

Shel & Jeff - back to your respective corners please.

And as for needing Rolaids in the USA - nope, never. I don't "dine" in bars or chain restaurants (at least when I can avoid it), and have tons of great dining experiences when I am traveling in the USA. I've had a few I don't want to remember, but nothing like the streak of bad dining in the UK.

[Jenise]

I missed the old insulated foil doggy bags of my childhood, most of which were the remnants of my parents' evening out at some swanky 'Continental' style restaurant typical of those days and which would often contain a suitable breakfast for little Jenise--leftover prime rib often enough, or on better days, crab-stuffed abalone steak or half a lobster shell full of a sublime Thermidor. All of which I would eat cold.

Let me guess - you especialy liked the tinfoil swans and such, right? I remember those! Some restaurants used to get quite creative with them.

Oh, I DO remember those, but I don't believe I ever found one in the fridge the next morning. No, the bags I'm remembering were foil on the outside and some kind of paper liner, a parchment of sorts, that had the most wonderfully satisfying crackle--and which would near wake up the rest of the house when I was trying to claim the leftovers for myself.

[Jenise]

David B--thanks for the ref job.

Jeff and Shel--go slug it out in the vacant lot across the street if you have to, but no more fighting in my kitchen, you hear?

No problem. I just can't let those close-minded rascals alone sometimes. Pow !

Shel, meet you at Ventura and Coldwater for a cold soda offline at Art's.

No problem. I just can't let those close-minded rascals alone sometimes. Pow !

Shel, meet you at Ventura and Coldwater for a cold soda offline at Art's.

Sounds good, but as one rascal to another, close-minded or not, may I suggest that you keep your car going and pointed east when you get to Coldwater. LOL, I know, picky picky, if we're gonna have this historic meet at Art's, it's way past there!

Of no culinary interest whatever, but yesterday, on leaving a tasting and then lunch and making my way to a main street to hail a taxi, I saw a woman carrying a burlap bag clearly labeled (in English) - "Doggie Bag" - and inside the bag with its head sticking out so it could observe the world going by, a young Pekinese. Made me smile....

Best
Rogov

From a Korean restaurant, maybe?

-Paul W.

[Jenise]

From a Korean restaurant, maybe?

-Paul W.

Argh! (giggle)