Do you use vermouth in your cooking?

Bill mentioned dusty bottles. Vermouth does not last real well on the shelf by our experience, usually far less than a month before it changes (oxidizes) into something radically different and fairly nasty. We keep our open bottle refrigerated and it still lasts barely a month before degrading more than we can stand. We have similar experience with angostura bitters despite its own supposed long shelf life.

If I recall correctly, in the intro to The Way To Cook Julia Child says that she recommends French white vermouth over US domestic white wine because cheap US white wines are too acid-deficient.

-Paul W.

Nope, not me, I don't do martinis--just don't care for any of the white alcohols.

You're talking to someone that thinks the only reason anyone drinks Vodka is to get pissed without people knowing it and the addition of various flavourings doesn't really change that opinion much.

However....gins do have significant flavour variations, and I use it in this way - I take a small crystal stemmed glass and half fill it with manzanilla olives (the pimento adds vitamins) and then, just to keep the olives cold, you understand, top up the glass with gin from a bottle kept in the freezer. As long as I'm not going anywhere else that night, and don't plan on a wine evening, of course.

Nope, I do not cook with vermouth. I subscribe to the philosophy of only cooking with wine I would want to drink; so that excludes vermouth.

Yes, vermouths are consumed by themselves...or with a splash of soda perhaps.

Part of the long and varied tradition of putting pretty much anything with aromas and flavors into (usually) cheap, crappy tasting wine.

Obviously more common in Europe than the US, and not as common as it used to be; lot of the younger crowd never got into vermouth, except as a mixer of some sort.

Vermouth is also good for the winos in Europe---cheap, plentiful, and fortified! Would make for a nasty hangover though. shudder

We always have vermouth on hand, but it's the sweet kind that is used for those Brandy Manhattans that Wisconsin people can not live without.

Gotta stay warm while ice fishing somehow!

Nope, not me, I don't do martinis--just don't care for any of the white alcohols.

You're talking to someone that thinks the only reason anyone drinks Vodka is to get pissed without people knowing it and the addition of various flavourings doesn't really change that opinion much.

However....gins do have significant flavour variations, and I use it in this way - I take a small crystal stemmed glass and half fill it with manzanilla olives (the pimento adds vitamins) and then, just to keep the olives cold, you understand, top up the glass with gin from a bottle kept in the freezer. As long as I'm not going anywhere else that night, and don't plan on a wine evening, of course.

Sorry to break this to ya, but Gin is just Vodka with flavoring, dude. Most specifically, juniper berry. But still, it's just grain neutral spirits (and nowdays pretty much anything you want to ferment and distill)---that is to say, vodka---with flavorings added.

So you like vodka more than you think you do.

If I recall correctly, in the intro to The Way To Cook Julia Child says that she recommends French white vermouth over US domestic white wine because cheap US white wines are too acid-deficient.

-Paul W.

When Julia wrote that, Euro vermouths were far superior to American vermouths. But things do change occasionally. Now American versions can be as good or better than Euro versions.

I agree that the Noilly is probably the best, and my preference, for widely available. Less sweet, more aged.

For those who absolutely have to be cultists though, they can seek out Boissiere (also French, mais certainment). Also pretty good.

Someone else mentioned Vya brand vermouths from CA. They are quite good.

Actually, the low price Gallo brand isn't at all bad.

Sorry to break this to ya, but Gin is just Vodka with flavoring, dude. Most specifically, juniper berry. But still, it's just grain neutral spirits (and nowdays pretty much anything you want to ferment and distill)---that is to say, vodka---with flavorings added.

So you like vodka more than you think you do.

Quite aware of that, but there's a difference. Other than a few vodkas that were always flavoured, the new wave of adding stuff - citrus or whatever, is a marketing ploy to try and make vodka stylish and sell more.

The 'addition' of flavouring to gin has a much longer tradition, and in my experience results in a much more interesting and varied range of spirits. But you are quite right, only terminology separates a flavoured vodka from, say, a Gin made from sprits by simple addition of juniper (my understanding is that most, and certainly any I would drink, get two steps - you add the juniper and whatever else they use to the neutral spirit and redistill it).

One of the differences between this sort of thing and single malt is that all of the production prior to distillation puts the flavours in the malt.

But then I am at heart really a single malt man - as I said, I only add the Gin to the olives to keep them cold.

Sorry to break this to ya, but Gin is just Vodka with flavoring, dude. Most specifically, juniper berry. But still, it's just grain neutral spirits (and nowdays pretty much anything you want to ferment and distill)---that is to say, vodka---with flavorings added.

So you like vodka more than you think you do.

Quite aware of that, but there's a difference. Other than a few vodkas that were always flavoured, the new wave of adding stuff - citrus or whatever, is a marketing ploy to try and make vodka stylish and sell more.

The 'addition' of flavouring to gin has a much longer tradition, and in my experience results in a much more interesting and varied range of spirits. But you are quite right, only terminology separates a flavoured vodka from, say, a Gin made from sprits by simple addition of juniper (my understanding is that most, and certainly any I would drink, get two steps - you add the juniper and whatever else they use to the neutral spirit and redistill it).

One of the differences between this sort of thing and single malt is that all of the production prior to distillation puts the flavours in the malt.

But then I am at heart really a single malt man - as I said, I only add the Gin to the olives to keep them cold.

With all due respect, Bill ---and this is not meant in a snarky way---you really don't know what you're talking about, or not nearly as much as you think you do.

Vodka has a significantly longer tradition than does gin. Significantly. You're just thinking of your own North America version of what you think vodka is, and not the scope of the category. Gin was created as a drink category long after vodka was already established. It was also create originally as a medicine/tonicand not a beverage. But it is nothing more than a base vodka with flavorings added to it. Further, it can be either distilled or cold compounded (i.e., not re-distilled with the botanicals).

Re Vodka: you have to keep up, dude. The basic playing field has totally changed within the last few years. Your basic supposition about vodka is correct---if you apply the US definition. But there has emerged a different version within the last few years which has changed vodka, or at least added another facet to the category. And that is the category that allows, say, Viognier wine to be added to the grain blend when making a fermentation mash to creat vodka. And if you don't think that makes a difference to the resulting vodka, then (a) you haven't had Hangar One, and (b) you don't know your basics in spirits about the primary sources of flavors. (Which apparently you do know, at least vis a vis malt, barly and the Single Malt process/category.)

Your understanding is incomplete. Again, that's not meant in a snarky of consdescending way---it's just incomplete and slightly mis-informed. You're pretty well informed, Bill; you're not informed at the professional level though.

I know. I teach this stuff. You going to be in Vancouver November 2--25? You can sign up for our two day course in Spirits. You'd love it.

Nope, I use a dry sherry instead - I prefer the taste to what Vermouth gives. I'll grant you that there are a few uses that call specifically for Vermouth, but not enugh nor often enough used for me to have yet another dusty bottle sitting in the back of my cupboard.

As I've said I've used it frequently. But, I can't think of a single application where dry sherry would work in those dishes in which I use the vermouth.

Re Vodka: you have to keep up, dude. The basic playing field has totally changed within the last few years.

It isn't a beverage that interests me, so I don't pay it any attention, any more than I do, say, beer.

I am sure that one could make an argument for keeping up with everything just for knowledge's sake, but one tends not to bother with subjects that hold no interest for them. I am sure that I am woefully uninformed about stamp collecting, marmot breeding and embroidery techniques, but I can live with that. If I ever developed a taste for Vodka, I'd certainly brush up on it. Now I know who to ask.

I know. I teach this stuff. You going to be in Vancouver November 2--25? You can sign up for our two day course in Spirits. You'd love it.

You ever do this class in NorCal, Hoke? Sounds interesting.

I was a bartender for many yrs and never remember using vermouth in anything but martinis.

You, the WLDG madonna, once a bartender?

Yep...best job I ever had...besides making pizzas at Domino's

I know. I teach this stuff. You going to be in Vancouver November 2--25? You can sign up for our two day course in Spirits. You'd love it.

You ever do this class in NorCal, Hoke? Sounds interesting.

Not yet, Mike, but I'm working on it.

I can do it anywhere there's sufficient interest, since it's easily movable.

If I do one in the area, I'll make sure to make noise about it here, Mike.

(It's about seven-eight hours, covering the basics of fermentation/distillation, then a chapter each on whiskies of the world, vodka, brandy, liqueurs and cordials, gin, rum, and tequila. In Vancouver they asked me to add a seminar on History of the Cocktail along with a session on bitters/amari/vermouth. Oh, and we taste roughly 56 different spirits, by category. )

Now that's my kind of syllabus! Keep us posted.

Re Vodka: you have to keep up, dude. The basic playing field has totally changed within the last few years.

It isn't a beverage that interests me, so I don't pay it any attention, any more than I do, say, beer.

I am sure that one could make an argument for keeping up with everything just for knowledge's sake, but one tends not to bother with subjects that hold no interest for them. I am sure that I am woefully uninformed about stamp collecting, marmot breeding and embroidery techniques, but I can live with that. If I ever developed a taste for Vodka, I'd certainly brush up on it. Now I know who to ask.

Bill: Apologize for coming off snippy in that post...but when you go to the trouble of learning all this stuff, and then you see someone get it even slightly misinterpreted (and you state those misinterpretations so authoritatively ) it did get me a twee bit rankled, I'll admit.

Just to clarify one point (if you're even the slightest bit interested), under the classification/definition/rule set of Gin, there are two basic processes that are legal and approved. One is the distillation process, wherein the neutral grain spirits are made, then the botanicals are added, then the newly flavored combination is re-distilled. When it says London Dry Gin, that's what you're getting, the redistilles type.

But it's also possible to simply add botanicals and let the steep or macerate or percolate, but not rsdistill. That's called cold-compounding. Unfortunately, it doesn't say anything about that on those bottles that are done that way. The tip off is usually---usually, but not always---the price. If it's on the bottom shelf, in a plastic bottle, and it's down around the lowest price in the category, that's usually the compounded stuff. Comes right from a recitifier/distiller, gets a label slapped on it, and goes on the bargain shelf or the well pour slot in the bar.

Vodka now, or some vodkas, can be the same way: they can be made from virtually anything---including vegetable/fruit garbage if they want, as long as it is distillable, not just grain, or potatoes---and they can be co-distilled (a la Hangar One, a combo of grain and aromatic wine). Which obviously changes the basic aroma/flavor components. They can be made in pot stills or column stills, which again influences the flavor profile. They can be redistilled with other flavors....or they can be simply compounded or infused with flavors (which is what you were talking about originally).

But gin is still, technically and historically, simply vodka with flavorings added. It's just that because of gin's peculiar origins (a medicinal tonic created by Dr. Silvius (Franscus de la Boe) in Holland, where he used juniper berry oil because it irritates the urethral canal and 'stimulates' kidney activity (and hence was considered a universal tonic for kidney, gall, and bladder problems, especially kidney stones), gin developed as a flavored vodka that always had juniper berry/pinene essence as its base.

So there: more than you ever really wanted or needed to know about gin and vodka.