Pizza. Pork. What else can a guy ask for?

[Robin Garr]

Agreed that my list is somewhat Eurocentric, but c'est la vie......considering where I live and where I spend a good deal of my time, that's reasonable enough.

Eurocentric, schmeurocentric. You have defined great pizza, by and large. What the Americans have done to pizza hardly bears thinking about, except perhaps for certain places in New York City and, I am told, New Haven, and scattered outposts around the country that follow a similar model.

I take your point on tinned tomatoes, but honestly, Stuart is almost right. (The point he missed is that if one makes an excellent sauce from garden tomatoes and fresh basil during the summer and freezes it in quantity, it can last all winter.)

Tomatoes are available all year round in California, either by hothouse you might find offensive, or by import from places like Mexico and Chile, and probably several Central American countries.
Re your 9 points.
1. Agreed, crust should taste terrif on its own.
2. Agreed, dough should be hand-rolled.
3. Great cheese, obviously agree to that.
4. All ingredients should be top quality, no argument from me.
5. Don't think tinned tomatoes a heinous enough crime for the death penalty, but prefer fresh.
6. Tomato sauce obviously "must" be low and slow and properly herbed. Minimum time for marinara sauce I make is 4 hours.
7. I too prefer thin crust, in fact extra-thin, available at some pizzerias here.
8. "Balance of flavors"...a no-brainer!
9. When you're king, fine with me, ban pineapple and guava, but how do you feel about anchovies? Is that on your hit list also? Just a comment, but it appears that within semi-rigid boundaries, your preferences are for "traditional" ingredients in pizzas and it's likely that "designer" pizzas would make you barf! However, what ingredients are "in", and what are "out".

If you like cardboard, the out-of-season tomatoes are fine. Robin's point is good, but I can't possibly freeze enough tomatoes for my pizza jones.

The better canned San Marzanos really are quite excellent. Don't dismiss them out of hand.

how do you feel about anchovies? Is that on your hit list also? Just a comment, but it appears that within semi-rigid boundaries, your preferences are for "traditional" ingredients in pizzas and it's likely that "designer" pizzas would make you barf! However, what ingredients are "in", and what are "out".

"In" and "out" can indeed be personal choices and indeed, to some extent I confess to being a traditionalist.

Among my list of potential "in"items (but not necessarily combined) - hot peppers, anchovies, capers, fried eggs, pepperoni, sweet peppers, smoked chicken,smoked salmon, caremlized onions, roast garlic, shrimp, lobster, king crab, artichoke hearts, asparagus, chives, mushrooms (including shitake and grated truffles), shallots, sun-dried toatoes

Among my list of potential "out" items - peanuts, peanut butter, hoisin sauce, broccoli, avocado, mango, lettuce, red and blackberries, walnuts, water chestnuts, zucchii, yellow squash, corn kernels, most fruits and certainly tropical fruits.

And now a question in return - what do you define as a "designer pizza"?

Best
Rogov

Hi Daniel. well I'm impressed with your list of "in" ingredients which is far more extensive and liberal than I expected from your initial posts extolling "traditional" toppings.
The term "designer pizza" was probably coined by Wolfgang Puck, his PR or by Ed LaDou, the chef he hired to head the original Spago on Sunset Blvd. who devised/created a host of such pizzas.
Ed LaDou now has his own place in L.A. called Caioti Cafe and on its menu for example is the "Rockefeller" pizza consisting of oysters, shrimp, spinach, gruyere, roast peppers, bread crumbs and mozzarella.
Here's a link to the Caioti Cafe menu where the rest of his pizzas are described, and LOL, how many would you eat.
http://www.caiotipizzacafe.com/menu.html
Now for the ultimate "designer pizza", may I direct you to New York City, to the restaurant, Nino's Bellisimo, where you partake of a pizza with the following:
On top of the handmade crust goes a layer of creme fraiche, then 8 oz. of 4 different kinds of caviar and topped with thinly sliced lobster tail and all this for a mere $1,000...enjoy!

ahem. ahem. Remember me? I started the thread......

Rogov, do you object to dough made in a mixer? Because any place with enough volume to stay in business couldn't possibly make their dough by hand. I just want to clarify your point, because I agree that the dough, once made, must be rolled out with a pin or even better, stretched and tossed by hand. But I know that earth shattering dough can be made in a Hobart mixer.

Regarding tomatoes, if one is selective, there are plenty of terrific canned tomatoes on the market. And as much as I love San Marzanos, and use them in my cooking, California, particularly a company named Stanislaus Packing, produces some of the finest canned tomato products I've ever had, from anywhere.

LOL, I love the way pizza is such a hot topic on this forum! There's hardly a time when there isn't a pizza thread on the first page!

From a pleb's point of view - we love our pizza thin crusted. When we have it at Napoli in Bocca, widely regarded as one of the best pizza restaurants in Sydney, the crusts are thin and soft - not thin and crispy. No idea if that's authentically Italian, but they really are delicious.

Most of the time we make our own. I'm all for a rolling pin over stretching and tossing, and we make our dough by hand. In terms of tomato sauce, however, we can never seem to get the same flavour from homemade sauce, no matter how ripe the tomatoes, as we can from some of the Italian passatas, like Mutti. Many will argue that there just isn't the same flavour in the tomatoes grown here in Oz, even if you use romas.

how many would you eat.

Shel, Hi....

A curmudgeon I may be, but a stick-in-the-mud I hope I am not. As to the New World pizzas listed on the Caioti menu, I'd gladly dine on all except the one with Portobello mushrooms and that only because I much prefer champignon to Portobello. Nothing radical about any of those.

I'd also give a miss to the Rockefeller you describe, with the oysters, spinach etc. I can adore each of those ingredients on their own but put them all together and what you have is not so much a pizza but a chef trying to show off and who may well have run out of better combinations.

As to the caviar and crème fraiche – damned' right I'd eat it. But only on the condition that you buy for both of us. (No fear, I'll supply the wine)

Best
Rogov

... do you object to dough made in a mixer?

No objections whatsoever. My fault for not mentioning that of course...

Best
Rogov

Sally's and Pepe's compete head-to-head in New Haven's old Italian district. If you get to either one, try the white clam pizza. I give the nod to Pepe's, but by the slimmest of bivalves.

Luckily, by then, I had figured out how to replicate it at home.

Do tell. (I'd guess oil, clams, garlic, parsley....)

You're good! That's basically it, Jeff. EVOO, lots of chopped clams with a little of the broth, lots of chopped garlic, fresh Italian parsley, and the finest shavings of Parmesan cheese at the end. (I know. I know. In Italy they never put cheese with seafood...)

The key though, is the dough. I got the recipe from the Fig's cookbook that I have at the other house, but I just found it on line for you. So good.
Fig's Pizza Dough Recipe

P.S. I just read on another website while looking for the dough that his Clam Pizza recipe was created in homage to Pepe's.

Re the $1,000 caviar/lobster pizza, Rogov writes:
<Only on the condition you buy for both of us. No fear, I'll supply the wine>
I'll consider it Daniel, if you make it a 59 Chateau Margaux, properly cellared all this time of course!

Among my list of potential "in"items (but not necessarily combined) - hot peppers, anchovies, capers, fried eggs, pepperoni, sweet peppers, smoked chicken,smoked salmon, caremlized onions, roast garlic, shrimp, lobster, king crab, artichoke hearts, asparagus, chives, mushrooms (including shitake and grated truffles), shallots, sun-dried toatoes

Fried eggs?

Among my list of potential "out" items - peanuts, peanut butter, hoisin sauce, broccoli, avocado, mango, lettuce, red and blackberries, walnuts, water chestnuts, zucchii, yellow squash, corn kernels, most fruits and certainly tropical fruits.

I once had a quite nice "Peking Duck pizza": hoisin, duck, and a scattering of scallions and cheese.

On which side of the curmudgeon's fence do we find pignoli?

I work in the computer field. The Indian folks that I work with, many of whom are vegetarian (of course), are absolutely wild for pineapple-jalapeno pizza. It's fun to see what immigrants/visitors do when they encounter the local cuisine. It's a time-honored process.

Jeff, Hi.....

Pignoles (or if we prefer, pine nuts) are fine on many pizzas! As to the fried eggs - lightly fried, transferred to the pizza before it goes into the oven - as an old American add used to have it:"Try it. You'll like it"

Don't remember what the ad was for.....probably something abysmal though.

Best
Rogov

P.S. Just checked with Google (where would we be without Google?) The slogan was for Alka Seltzer. I suspect that I'm rather glad that I never tried Alka Seltzer.

I once had a quite nice "Peking Duck pizza": hoisin, duck, and a scattering of scallions and cheese.

All well and good, but that's not pizza.

Re the $1,000 caviar/lobster pizza, Rogov writes:
<Only on the condition you buy for both of us. No fear, I'll supply the wine>
I'll consider it Daniel, if you make it a 59 Chateau Margaux, properly cellared all this time of course!

Shel...


Don't have the 1959 in my cellar but there are two bottles of the 1961 in storage for me in New York. If you're serious about your consideration, send me a private message and we'll set a date. In case it tempts you, my most recent tasting note for the wine in question follows.

Best
Rogov
Chateau Margaux, 1961: Full bodied and with its deep royal purple color beginning to show hints of browning. Aromas of black currants, cedar wood (or was it hickory?) and violets. A powerful, well balanced, full bodied, and truly magnificent wine. At an earlier tasting I suggested that the wine is eminently drinkable now and might live until 2050. I have no reason to change that estimate. Score 100 (Re-tasted 18 Nov 2005)

[Jenise]

Looks good. By coincidence, I was going to post the following leading pizza destinations yesterday. They were listed in a recent Wine Spectator. Has anyone tried any of these?

Al Forno; Charcoal-grilled. Providence, RI.
Antica Pizzeria; Neapolitan. Marina del Rey, CA.
Apizza Scholls; Neapolitan. Portland, OR.
A16; Modified Neapolitan. San Francisco, CA.
Caioti Pizza Cafe; California style. Studio City, CA.
Di Fara Pizzeria; New York Style. Brooklyn, NY.
Frank Pepe Pizzeria Napoletana; New Haven Style. New Haven, CT.
Grimaldi's; New York Style. Brooklyn, NY.
Lombardi's; New York Style. New York, NY.
Lou Malnati's; Chicago deep dish. Chicago, IL.
Otto Enoteca Pizzeria; Flat griddle cooked. New York, NY.
Pizzaiolo; Modified Neapolitan. Oakland, CA.
Pizza Bianco; Modified Neapolitan. Phoenix, AZ.
Pizzeria Delfina; Cal-Ital. San Francisco, CA.
Sally's Apizza; New Haven style. New Haven, CT.
Serious Pie; Crisp crust, creative toppings. Seattle, WA.
Spago Beverly Hills; California style. Beverly Hills, CA.
Tacconelli's; New York style tomato pie. Philadephia, PA.
Tommaso's; Modified Neapolitan. Brooklyn, NY.
Una Pizza Napoletana; Neapolitan. New York, NY.

Of those on the list, only been to Spago and Otto. Otto deserves it's place, but not IMO Spago. Instead it's taking the place that should belong to Nancy Silverton's Pizzeria Mozza. At Spago, pizza's just one of many things on the menu, and as Stuart says, it's not all that compelling. Where Mozza's fabulous. But Nancy Silverton hasn't been cheffing wine tastings for the Speck like Wolfie has for years, has she?

Interested to see "Apizza Scholls; Neapolitan. Portland, OR" on the list. It came to my attention just two weeks ago, and I actually had a road trip scheduled just to try the place this past week, which fell through. The object of my lust? A pizza topped with clams--still in the shell.

Interested to see "Apizza Scholls; Neapolitan. Portland, OR" on the list. It came to my attention just two weeks ago, and I actually had a road trip scheduled just to try the place this past week, which fell through. The object of my lust? A pizza topped with clams--still in the shell.

It'll have a lot of fiber.

Jenise, I've dined at Mozza, the restaurant, not the pizzeria yet, but agree with you on general principles that Spago doesn't belong on any top 10 list, it's old and tired and the current Beverly Hills location only has pizza as an afterthought being oh so "gourmet"!
FYI, Mozza the restaurant is huge, seats in excess of 250 I think, and between Silverton and Mario Batali, they've done a helluva job on the food and even the service is good, but... Unfortunately, count this resto into the 'trendy' category, meaning that it's very very noisy, bring your own earplugs, and they compund it by playing crap music at an excess of decibels. But LOL, it's still a hot ticket item.
I'll get to the pizzeria one of these days, it's next door to the resto and I hear they are extremely good.

[Jenise]

Interested to see "Apizza Scholls; Neapolitan. Portland, OR" on the list. It came to my attention just two weeks ago, and I actually had a road trip scheduled just to try the place this past week, which fell through. The object of my lust? A pizza topped with clams--still in the shell.

It'll have a lot of fiber.

LOL--I love your sense of humor. Okay, so one must remove the clams from the shells--but I saw one of these pizzas on film and it looked amazing. I don't mind eating with my hands--kind of makes it a two course meal in one pie.

[Jenise]

Jenise, I've dined at Mozza, the restaurant, not the pizzeria yet, but agree with you on general principles that Spago doesn't belong on any top 10 list, it's old and tired and the current Beverly Hills location only has pizza as an afterthought being oh so "gourmet"!
FYI, Mozza the restaurant is huge, seats in excess of 250 I think, and between Silverton and Mario Batali, they've done a helluva job on the food and even the service is good, but... Unfortunately, count this resto into the 'trendy' category, meaning that it's very very noisy, bring your own earplugs, and they compund it by playing crap music at an excess of decibels. But LOL, it's still a hot ticket item. I'll get to the pizzeria one of these days, it's next door to the resto and I hear they are extremely good.

Haven't tried the restaurant yet but everything I've read about it supports your opinion. However, the Pizzeria's GREAT. The pizzas are both surprising and stunning, as are the antipasti--I don't care what you normally think of brussels sprouts, these are a must.

[Robin Garr]

Otto deserves it's place

I like Otto a lot. Even if it IS terminally trendy, Batali knows his pie, and the Italian wine list is cool, too.

Otto deserves it's place

I like Otto a lot. Even if it IS terminally trendy, Batali knows his pie, and the Italian wine list is cool, too.

Wine by the quarto!

Re Brussels sprouts, love 'em, bring 'em on!

--I don't care what you normally think of brussels sprouts, these are a must.

Jenise,

I love you. You know I love you. I even love brussels sprouts. But brussels sprouts on pizza? I think I would prefer the bacterium that cause bubonic plague. At least there is a cure these days for bubonic plague.

Ye faithful humorous curmudgeon
Rogov