Julia Who? How France reacts to Mrs. Child

[Jenise]

Interesting article in the NYTimes on the rather divided opinions about who and what Julia Child was, as the movie Julie & Julia opens in Paris.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/17/world/europe/17julia.html?ref=dining

Interesting article in the NYTimes on the rather divided opinions about who and what Julia Child was, as the movie Julie & Julia opens in Paris.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/17/world/europe/17julia.html?ref=dining

The article seems to suffer from the same problem that American reaction to the book does: presuming that the book was principally the work of Julia Child. As the movie makes clear, the recipes were the work of Simone Beck and Louisette Bertholle and Julia's contribution was translating and adapting them to the American home kitchen. And why would the French be familiar with her since her aim with the book was to bring French cooking to America. France has Escoffier and Larousse -- why should they need Beck, Bertholle and Child? I think that her personality, though, was readily understandable to the French: a gourmand with joie de vivre.

On a related note, I thought that Meryl Streep's performance as Julia was eerily good. Even for an actress known for her portrayals, this performance was note-perfect IMO.

Mark Lipton

p.s. I saw a book review in the NYT earlier this year for a new cookbook of French home cooking. In the review, they compared "Julia's" Boeuf Bourguignon with that in the book under review, noting that the former was far more complex and time-consuming.

I think you're right. Simca was in fact the primary contributor. Julia was the American facilitator.

p.s. I saw a book review in the NYT earlier this year for a new cookbook of French home cooking. In the review, they compared "Julia's" Boeuf Bourguignon with that in the book under review, noting that the former was far more complex and time-consuming.

I believe this is the article to which you refer. Here is a separate link to the recipe, which is also linked in the article. (The NYTimes site may require free registration.)

Just a conjecture, but isn't this the way France treats anybody who isn't French?

Just a conjecture, but isn't this the way France treats anybody who isn't French?

BINGO!!!

[Jenise]

Their reputation, in my experience, is most undeserved. That said, when it comes to cuisine, they've earned the right.

Their reputation, in my experience, is most undeserved. That said, when it comes to cuisine, they've earned the right.

Have you ever lived there. We have, and when we ran our B&B we had many guests that had to live there for employment purposes, and had the same experiences.

[Jenise]

Have you ever lived there. We have, and when we ran our B&B we had many guests that had to live there for employment purposes, and had the same experiences.

No, I haven't. But I have driven all over France a number of times. Outside of the big cities, French people are as warm and as welcoming as any people on earth. In the cities, and Paris in particular, I found the people a bit more curt and businesslike, but that's true of city dwellers the world over, isn't it? At any rate, I always felt well treated and can name only one instance of rudeness by a waitress in a restaurant, but who's to say she wasn't just having a bad day. I didn't take it personally--I've certainly run into that here, too.

I, too, was treated well everywhere I went. Spent most of my time in Paris.

I am another one who has had almost only good experiences in France with the French, even in Paris. You can have bad experiences anywhere, so the few I've had in France, I just shrug off and don't attribute them as being endemic to France or Frenchness. Nor do I take them personally. (One of my favorite experiences was when I was standing in the vicinity of a bus stop in Paris. A very harried woman rushed up, asking me when a particular bus was coming. I politely told her that I was sorry but I didn't know. And she said to me with great indignation "well, why not?!?!". This was all in French, of course. I loved it because I took it as me being accepted as a part of the landscape there. Plus it was pretty funny.) That all being said, I am careful to try to fit in -- I smile a lot less, I do not grin, I talk softly, I use the proper phrases and try for proper conduct (madame, je suis desolee de vous deranger, mais j'ai une petite question s'il vous plait...; always greeting the shopperson upon walking into a store and the same when leaving, for example), I order properly in a restaurant (eg not going in and just ordering a salad), I do not wear cut-offs or trainers, and so forth. Plus, I always speak French as much as possible. It's a place and a people that have treated me well. cheers, Bonnie

Sounds like all these varied opinions of the French warrants a separate poll thread where the choices could run from 'The most courteous, warm-hearted people I've ever known' to 'The rudest jerks in the universe'.
Would anybody like to make the arguement that France is not the most jingoistic, nationalist oriented country in Europe?
Re Paris, my personal experiences don't run to "warm & fuzzy" as a description for Parisians. Unwelcoming or standoffish would be more like it, shading to downright rude in a few encounters, but haven't been there in 5 years so maybe things have changed.
Always found the South of France almost the opposite and that they don't like the Parisians much either, and before anybody jumps in, this of course my contribution to making a sweeping generalization!

I’ve spent plenty of time in France and the majority of the French I encountered did not come across as being rude. However, the few that were indeed rude displayed an unprecedented level of rudeness and boorishness that would make a Chicago Bears fan look like Miss Manners.

Would anybody like to make the arguement that France is not the most jingoistic, nationalist oriented country in Europe?

Well, let's see... Which European country instigated two world wars of conquest?

Would anybody like to make the arguement that France is not the most jingoistic, nationalist oriented country in Europe?

At the moment? That honor might now go to Russia, with honorable mention to Serbia and Turkey and the UK. As a tourist and temporary resident, I've been treated exceptionally well throughout Europe, including France. Probably my worst experience as a visitor was in Denmark, but I haven't spent enough time there to draw any generalizations.

Mark Lipton

Would anybody like to make the arguement that France is not the most jingoistic, nationalist oriented country in Europe?

Well, let's see... Which European country instigated two world wars of conquest?

And let us not forget that peacemaker named Napoleon Bonaparte. Just giving you a hard time, Jeff.

And let us not forget that peacemaker named Napoleon Bonaparte. Just giving you a hard time, Jeff.

And you'd be right... if we were having this discussion in 1809.

And let us not forget that peacemaker named Napoleon Bonaparte. Just giving you a hard time, Jeff.

And you'd be right... if we were having this discussion in 1809.

Sorry, I concluded after reading your previous reply that you were refering to the past when you made mention of a country that instigated two world wars and I, also, replied with an example from the past.

Would anybody like to make the arguement that France is not the most jingoistic, nationalist oriented country in Europe?

Well, let's see... Which European country instigated two world wars of conquest?

Okay, I obviously considered Germany as I wrote that post, and went ahead with it because there was a very significant opposition group (some "experts" put it over 50%) to Hitler's agenda and I doubt that anything near that percentage opposes "France for the French"....or that anything except maybe a Big Mac is superior to anything France has produced itself!

Would anybody like to make the arguement that France is not the most jingoistic, nationalist oriented country in Europe?

Well, let's see... Which European country instigated two world wars of conquest?

Okay, I obviously considered Germany as I wrote that post, and went ahead with it because there was a very significant opposition group (some "experts" put it over 50%) to Hitler's agenda and I doubt that anything near that percentage opposes "France for the French"....or that anything except maybe a Big Mac is superior to anything France has produced itself!

And yet millions died. (Sorry... I think I shouldn't participate in this thread anymore.)

Sounds like all these varied opinions of the French warrants a separate poll thread where the choices could run from 'The most courteous, warm-hearted people I've ever known' to 'The rudest jerks in the universe'.
Would anybody like to make the arguement that France is not the most jingoistic, nationalist oriented country in Europe?
Re Paris, my personal experiences don't run to "warm & fuzzy" as a description for Parisians. Unwelcoming or standoffish would be more like it, shading to downright rude in a few encounters, but haven't been there in 5 years so maybe things have changed.
Always found the South of France almost the opposite and that they don't like the Parisians much either, and before anybody jumps in, this of course my contribution to making a sweeping generalization!

Not aiming this towards you, Shel, but in my experience the folks here who consider the French to be highly nationalist and jingoistic tend to be those who are highly nationalist and jingoistic. The whole "freedom fries" thing comes to mind here.

The only time I have been treated rudely in France was when I was driving like a complete moron and deserved every gesture that was aimed my way. Otherwise, we've been treated quite well in both Paris and the south even though I stand out like a very sore American thumb.

Mike Filigenzi wrote:
Not aiming this at you Shel, but in my experience the folks here who consider the French to be highly nationalist and jingoistic tend to be those who are highly nationalist and jingoistic...
LOL Mike, you mean that wasn't a thinly veiled shot at what you believe to be my political views and attitude toward foreigners!
By the 'folks here' did you mean WLDG members or the USA and Canada? If the former, then by all means start a poll thread and maybe we can compare the results to a national poll.
I'm delighted to learn that your experiences in france and particularly in Paris were so positive and that unfortunately my 4 or 5 dozen trips to Paris weren't on a par. And I'd even go so far as to suggest that there are millions of tourists without an ounce of nationalism or jingoism who have had similar experiences in Paris as I had.

my 4 or 5 dozen trips to Paris weren't on a par..

You've been to Paris over 50 times and your treatment still hasn't improved? You haven't figured out how to behave in a way more conducive to local customs?

I agree that part of it is that Paris is a big city and even French people from the countryside find Parisians rude. Part of it is also France's role as a middle power and some resentment/conflict with America and American symbols. But despite all of that I have been to Paris at least once a year for the past seven years and at this point my treatment in Paris is not really any different from Nyc. When I first started going my French was weak and I didn't really know how the city operated. But at this point my French is much better and I know how to operate and people are much less likely to get stressed out with me. I can't believe that hasn't happened to you after over 50 visits!

We love Julia in our house! We have the "Baking with Julia" cookbook, in which she is merely the host, but its a good show. She had Martha on once, and having seen Martha make a very elaborate wedding cake, it completely raised my level of respect for here (I honestly didn't think she knew how to really cook before that).

As for the French, I have two principle impressions: 1. a gentleman born and raised just south of Bordeaux, who worked for a while a the main liquor store her in Bloomington. He was the epitome of French snottiness when it came to wine, but I found his frankness refreshing. On the balance he was pleasant. 2. the couple who runs the delightful Provencial cafe in Bloomington. The epitome of French warmth and hospitality. And they're both from Paris, I think. If the place isn't busy, the owner will sit down at the table personally, explain the menu, take your order, socialize, etc. He even gave me a bottle of Pouilly-Fume last month simply because I said I liked P-F (my notes on that will be up in WLDG soon).