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Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

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Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Dave R » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:46 pm

A Native American friend of mine sent me this article. She sides with PETA because it is her belief that we should show respect for the dead creatures that we remove from their environment and serve on our dinner tables. I'm sure we can all agree that the fish should be harvested in the most pain-free manner as possible, but what about tossing them around for show after they are dead? Animals cannot feel "respect" alive or dead, but then again we respect dead humans and do not throw them around. What's your take on this?

Seattle's Pike Place fishmongers under fire
Animal rights group PETA protests their plans to exhibit their fish-flinging technique at an upcoming veterinarians conference.
By Kim Murphy

June 13, 2009

Reporting from Seattle — In this noisy den of brine and ice, scales and slime, fish always have been part meat, part missile.

One man points to an enormous white-bellied fish, and another man in a wet apron scoops it up from the ice, hoists it over his shoulder and sends it flying 15 feet toward the counter.

"Hali-BUT! Hali-BUT! Heyyyyyy!" six men scream in unison. "Goin' right home! Goin' right home!" The counterman catches the hurtling fish neatly between the head and tail fin and slaps it onto a wrapping sheet.

The Pike Place Fish Market is the legendary home of the flying fish: Halibut as big as a wrestler's thigh, spiky medallions of crab, the smooth, rainbow flesh of Chinook salmon, all become rapid-fire marine rockets in the hands of Seattle's fishmongers -- who are as famous for the speed of their fish as for its freshness.

But did anyone ever think of the fish?

Asserting that the practice of lobbing fish above the heads of patrons and tourists at the market and other venues is disrespectful to creatures that already have gone through a lot, an animal rights group is protesting plans to stage a flying-fish exhibition at an upcoming national veterinarians conference in Seattle.

Ultimately, they would like to see the practice banned at the fish market too. They argue that tourists would not be nearly so eager to snap photos if dead kittens or gutted lambs were sailing over their heads.

"Killing animals so you can toss their bodies around for amusement is just twisted," said Ashley Byrne, senior campaigner for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals in Washington, D.C.

"And it particularly sends a terrible message to the public when vets call it fun to toss around the corpses of animals. If anyone should be promoting compassion and not callousness toward animals, it should be vets."

The 102-year-old Pike Place Market is perhaps Seattle's most important institution, a cacophony of commerce in the middle of the city that hosts 10 million visitors a year, including flocks of tourists and Seattleites in search of lunch and fresh flowers.

Stretching three levels down the hillside above Elliott Bay, the narrow, crowded rows of stalls and shops begin in the open-air bustle along Pike Street and Western Avenue, opposite the original Starbucks. The air is fragrant with the smells of fish, hot fried mini-doughnuts, Hmong flower sellers' fresh blooms and sizzling gourmet sausage.

In the seemingly endless warrens of shops in the basement and nearby alleys, visitors might find anarchist treatises, herbal tinctures, vintage comic books and last Friday's newspaper from Sarajevo.

The market's flying fish have become such an institution of the Pacific Northwest that the fishmongers often are hired to give demonstrations at conferences, hospitals, schools and company retreats.

Jeremy Ridgway, one of the managers at the market, said that he has done fish shows for the ministry of manpower in Singapore, for schoolchildren in Oklahoma and at countless other venues.

"People get excited about it. They get to hold a fish; they get to touch it. A lot of people have never held a salmon before. In Oklahoma, they don't have wild fish, unless you count catfish," he said.

He said fishmongers are bewildered at the notion that their toss -- which they describe as merely the quickest way of getting fish from display cases to the counter -- shows any lack of reverence for a creature that is, after all, their livelihood.

"I mean, the fish are dead," Ridgway said. "The thing is, we're not laughing and making fun of them. . . . It's just Point A to Point B. That's why we do it."

"Two crabs!" somebody yells, and the smart ones in the crowd quickly duck.

In a letter to the veterinarian association, PETA Director Sarah King said the flying fish demonstration represents callous disregard for the suffering the creatures undergo before they come to the table.

"There is more than enough scientific evidence to prove that fish feel pain and that they do not die well at the hands of the fishing industry," she said, citing numerous studies that show fish have intelligence as well as sophisticated social structures.

"When the fish used in these 'tosses' are pulled up from the depths of the ocean, they undergo the excruciating pain of decompression. The intense pressure often ruptures their swim bladders and damages other internal organs. Then the fish slowly suffocate or are bludgeoned to death. Others are still alive when they are cut open. The fish toss celebrates cruelty to marine animals," King wrote.

W. Ron DeHaven, chief executive of the American Veterinary Medical Assn., said that the flying fish demonstration was scheduled during the convention's July 11 opening session as a team-building exercise for as many as 10,000 veterinarians, receptionists and veterinary technicians.

"We start from a fundamental standpoint as an association, where we support the use of animals for human purposes, such as food and fiber, exhibition and for use as pets and companions, and we think this is consistent with our principles," he said.

At the same time, he said, "we wouldn't want to do anything that would appear to be disrespectful of animals."

PETA has butted heads with the association in the past, criticizing it for not opposing the force-feeding of geese for foie gras or the tight confinement of mother pigs.

So simply switching to rubber fish for the convention demonstration -- after PETA offered to buy such substitutes -- may not be a good option either, DeHaven said.

"The vast majority of our members would support the use of fish for this purpose, and if we are perceived as caving to political pressure from PETA, there is vulnerability for us there, and I don't want to ignore that," he said.

Ridgway said the fishmongers were willing to throw the rubber variety for the vets, but wonders what the point would be. "It would be like throwing basketballs," he said.

"It's probably no more disrespectful than eating them," said Sue Carter, visiting the market one recent afternoon from Mukilteo, Wash., smiling as her salmon sailed toward the cash register. "I wouldn't want to see a fish gasping for air coming flying through the air. But one that's already on the way to the table, why not?"

Sympathy was on ice. Few were inclined to think it through, and those who did came up hungry.

"As far as whether I'd want to see dead cats being thrown around, well, who's going to throw dead cats, unless you're in China or something?" said Vancouver, Canada, resident Robin Graham. "A dead fish is a dead fish."
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Robert Reynolds » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:16 pm

I'd like to see the PETA nutcases get tossed ISO the salmon.
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Matilda L » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:17 am

The annual Tunarama Festival held in Port Lincoln (in South Australia) celebrates the town's connections with the tuna industry. One of its popular events is the "Tuna Toss". This operates a bit like hammer throwing at the Highland Games and involves throwing a substantial-sized tuna as far as you can. The record is apparently something like 37 metres and has remained unbroken for years. I'm a bit bemused by the popularity of this event. Seems like a waste of good food to me.
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Mike Filigenzi » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:27 am

I saw that article earlier and I haven't really made up my mind yet. On the one hand, I like the idea of having a certain respect for what you've killed in order to eat. On the other hand, the fish are dead. We certainly don't treat dead humans in such cavalier fashion. But then again, we (usually) don't eat dead humans either.

Like I said, I have to think a bit more on this one.
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Ian Sutton » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:43 am

I'd rather have my food treated with more care - if it needs tenderising, then I'm happy to do it myself.

Also dislike the idea of wasting food for entertainment (this links nicely to Rogov's thread about eating competitions).

... and maybe equally important, is that if we're going to kill and animal (or have it killed for us), then we really ought to make use of as much, if not all of the animal for food / other use.

So if they're complaining about disrespect of the animal's soul by slapping it on the counter, then they'll presumably also be against chef's tenderising meat? At that point the argument has run out of steam IMO.

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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Howie Hart » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:15 am

Does this somehow relate to Spam or hot dogs? :?
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Doug Surplus » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:42 am

Just think, if we could only harvest the energy PETA expends on things like this .......
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Bill Spohn » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:42 am

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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Shel T » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:35 pm

Robert Reynolds wrote:I'd like to see the PETA nutcases get tossed ISO the salmon.

Ditto
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by David M. Bueker » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:51 pm

I have exactly zero respect for anything done by PETA. As I have mentioned previously I was verbally assaulted by some of their members in Paris because I dared to walk past a shop they didn't like. They can all go take a flying fish* for all I care.

*you know what I mean :wink:
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Jenise » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:00 pm

I'm not impressed by their arguments. By the time the fish is dead it's way too late to get their knickers in a wad about a little kitschy showmanship.
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Daniel Rogov » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:02 pm

With regard to the Pike Street Market, I wonder if PETA would be more content if the now deceased fish were cradled lovingly in the arms of one fish monger and then passed with gentle, almost tender respect to the next. Perhaps we could even organize a love-in for the fish, having the fish make the rounds, craddled tenderly by all present in the market. And then, as we butcher it, perhaps a rabbi, priest, imam or minister chanting an appropriate prayer to see it on its way, all with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in the background humming (in the most dignified way of course) Amazing Grace. All, of course, as we observers comfortably indulge in oysters on the half-shell.

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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by ChefJCarey » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:58 pm

"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
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Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Robert Reynolds » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:24 pm

I have been to the Pike Place Market twice, was greatly entertained by the fish-throwers, and have the T-shirt to prove it. I see nothing disrespectful about it, rather see it as the most effecient manner of getting the fish, crabs, etc from the ice to the wrappers so it can be packaged quickly.
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Jo Ann Henderson » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:32 pm

The question begs to be asked -- I wonder if any of these people have as much respect or care for living humans as they do dead animals or unborn fetuses? :roll:
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Larry Greenly » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:38 am

Amen. Likewise on the far other side of the political spectrum.

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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Jenise » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:51 am

Jo Ann Henderson wrote:The question begs to be asked -- I wonder if any of these people have as much respect or care for living humans as they do dead animals or unborn fetuses? :roll:


I don't believe so. They're closely related to the save-the-ocean people who have just passed new coastline regulations that say that if my house burns down I can't rebuild it.
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Carrie L. » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:47 pm

Doug Surplus wrote:Just think, if we could only harvest the energy PETA expends on things like this .......


Doug, that was pretty much my thought.
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Ian Sutton » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:59 pm

Jenise wrote:
Jo Ann Henderson wrote:The question begs to be asked -- I wonder if any of these people have as much respect or care for living humans as they do dead animals or unborn fetuses? :roll:


I don't believe so. They're closely related to the save-the-ocean people who have just passed new coastline regulations that say that if my house burns down I can't rebuild it.

Jenise
That's got nothing to do with the coastal environment and crackpot opinion... they've seen how long it takes for you to re-do your kitchen and they're unwilling to accept a 35 year rebuilding project on the whole house :wink: :shock: :wink:
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by MikeH » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:47 pm

Never been to the Pike Street venue but I have seen video.....the fish house is one of the central examples in the management text "So You Want to Be World-Class?" or some similar name.

As far as this topic is concerned, I am in the "dead is dead" camp. The fish tossing is the most expeditious way to get from A to B, it lets their employees have some fun while working, and it has evolved into a great marketing point.

Clearly, some people need to get a life.
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Bob Henrick » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:28 pm

MikeH wrote:Never been to the Pike Street venue but I have seen video.....the fish house is one of the central examples in the management text "So You Want to Be World-Class?" or some similar name.

As far as this topic is concerned, I am in the "dead is dead" camp. The fish tossing is the most expeditious way to get from A to B, it lets their employees have some fun while working, and it has evolved into a great marketing point.

Clearly, some people need to get a life.


Mike, I have tried to stay away from posting in this thread, because I really don't care if a dead fish is tossed from one handler to another. However having said that I KNOW that not all the fish are caught, and some must hit the floor SPLAT!, and what we have is a big ole bruised tuna that still costs $12 a pound. Not the most appetizing of thoughts is it?
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by David M. Bueker » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:46 pm

Bob - go see them. They don't miss many, if any. It was quite a sight the couple of times I went.
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Jo Ann Henderson » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:49 pm

Bob Henrick wrote: However having said that I KNOW that not all the fish are caught, and some must hit the floor SPLAT!, and what we have is a big ole bruised tuna that still costs $12 a pound. Not the most appetizing of thoughts is it?

They don't sell those fish.
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Re: Is a dead fish just a dead fish?

by Mike Filigenzi » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:56 pm

Bob -

I think selling bruised tuna would be a quality issue, but it doesn't really involve the ethical issue of tossing dead fish. And as others have mentioned, they don't drop them often and the ones that get dropped aren't sold. I don't think they'd have kept the operation going this long if customers were paying lots of money for bad fish.
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