Speaking of bay leaves

[Jenise]

I am SO loving my fresh bay leaf plant, what a neat thing it is to just walk outside and pick bay leaves whenever I want them. I actually ended up buying two--one to harvest while the other one grows!

Ooh. How large do they get? Would they grow in the desert?

[Jenise]

Ooh. How large do they get? Would they grow in the desert?

They'll get pretty big I'm told, maybe 20 or 30 feet. Don't know about the desert--if they grow here their water demands may exceed what you can do for them in the desert, but I know they grow well in Southern California so they do put up with some heat.

I love mine too, Jenise. Isn't it the best? Unfortunately, about 2 years ago mine got an infestation of white fly. My gardener suggested that I might want to buy another and put this one out to pasture. I'm thinking I'll try to get one in a one gallon pot and keep it potted and try to keep it's size manageable. They grow quite fast and I think yours will be 5 feet or more in 2 years, Jenise. I think Bay will grow practically anywhere, Carrie. I'd suggest you give it a try. Mine is in a very sunny location that is one of the drier parts of the garden, so it suffers from lack of moisture (except in the rainy season -- in Seattle, that's most of the time). Somehow, I believe if you purchase one it will survive, but may just be a smaller plant. Let us know what you do.

Ooh. How large do they get? Would they grow in the desert?

The California Bay Laurel (umbellilaria californica var. californica) is hardy to USDA Zones 9a-10b. The mediterranean Bay Laurel (Laurus noblilis) is hardy to Zones 8a-11. They both are very soil tolerant but need regular watering. Because these are trees suited to an Oceanic/Mediterranean climate, you'd probably want to avoid full sun exposure in the desert, unless maybe you're in the high desert.

Mark Lipton

A CA Bay Laurel resides in my backyard. It is 15 to 20 years old, very tall and used to have a good shape. One day my husband decided he wanted to park the RV further back on the concrete drive, so he cut off one side of the bay tree so the RV would fit. I almost called a lawyer! The tree never took a step back, just took it all in stride and is doing fine. Very lovely tree, nice dark green, does not drop leaves, is not messy and smells so wonderful even with a flat side about 1/4 of the way up. Actually the tree is in the same place that a mature Japanese Maple used to live. In the Fall it was the most beautiful tree, I had ever seen. I came home from work one day to find it gone. Gene was building 900 sq. ft. workshop attached to the house and he and the contractor chopped it down.

so he cut off one side of the bay tree so the RV would fit....... he and the contractor chopped it down.

Wow, Karen, what does Gene have against trees??

Seems to me that would be grounds for divorce at a minimum.

Lorena Bobbit.

Ouch...

A CA Bay Laurel resides in my backyard. It is 15 to 20 years old, very tall and used to have a good shape. One day my husband decided he wanted to park the RV further back on the concrete drive, so he cut off one side of the bay tree so the RV would fit. I almost called a lawyer! The tree never took a step back, just took it all in stride and is doing fine. Very lovely tree, nice dark green, does not drop leaves, is not messy and smells so wonderful even with a flat side about 1/4 of the way up. Actually the tree is in the same place that a mature Japanese Maple used to live. In the Fall it was the most beautiful tree, I had ever seen. I came home from work one day to find it gone. Gene was building 900 sq. ft. workshop attached to the house and he and the contractor chopped it down.

Ouch!! One of my ways of coping with a relocation from NoCal to the Midwest was to plant a garden with plants I loved from "home." After winnowing out all those plants that grow fabulously in Zone 9b but not in Zone 5a, I was left with wisteria, rhododendrons, one species of running bamboo (phyllostachys bissetti 'dwarf') and Japanese maple, all of which are now planted in our tiny (30' x 30') back yard.

Mark Lipton

[Robin Garr]

Have you ever walked in Muir Woods, Jenise? Mary and I were there once in early December, when the ground was covered with freshly fallen bay leaves. We came out with all our pockets full, jarred them when we got home, and had enough excellent California bay leaves to last us for several years.

There's probably some regulation against that, probably the same one that forbids harvesting chanterelles there (regulators ignorant of biology). Not that a few bits of biota might have accidentally followed ME home from time to time...

[Jenise]

Have you ever walked in Muir Woods, Jenise? Mary and I were there once in early December, when the ground was covered with freshly fallen bay leaves. We came out with all our pockets full, jarred them when we got home, and had enough excellent California bay leaves to last us for several years.

I have, but at the time wouldn't have neccessarily recognized a bay leaf in the wild. Had I, indeed my pockets would have been full, too.

After reading Mark's input about California vs. Mediterranean, I'm wondering which kind I planted. Not sure, all I know is, if you've ever bought fresh bay leaves in those little fresh herb clamshells at the super market, my fresh ones have about ten times the flavor of those.

I had bought a second sweet bay (~2.5' tall, in gallon container) just as the weather got wintry cold here. It seems as if we will have a long enough cold spell (below 30º F predicted through the first week of January) that the mites and white flies will surely die this year. I'll know by April. If so, I may have a start available that someone can have. I prefer to keep the one growing in my kitchen garden (which I try to keep prunned back to about 6' tall). I'll keep you posted.

[Jenise]

I had bought a second sweet bay (~2.5' tall, in gallon container) just as the weather got wintry cold here. It seems as if we will have a long enough cold spell (below 30º F predicted through the first week of January) that the mites and white flies will surely die this year. I'll know by April. If so, I may have a start available that someone can have. I prefer to keep the one growing in my kitchen garden (which I try to keep prunned back to about 6' tall). I'll keep you posted.

Do you know if yours are California or Mediterranean?

Do you know if yours are California or Mediterranean?

No, it's only identified as Sweet Bay Laurel. But, there are some differencesin the shape and I have seen them both. The California bay is supposed to be long and slender. The Mediterranean bay is supposed to be th more plump of the two, but can still reach ~3" long. By appearance, the ones I have are both Mediterranean, if the description is correct.

Jenise, the California version is risky here.

We are zone 8b to 9 most years and 8a in years like this when it heads down to -7 or so (that's Celsius, before all you Americans figure we're building igloos).

Which means that the more tender variety will probably work if you choose the best location, but will probably kill back every 4 or 5 years. As I don't think the flavour is significantly different, the Mediterranean version is definitely the one to go for.

What a great climate you have in the Pacific Northwest. I keep a Bay tree - really a small plant-about 3 ft . I have to keep it on the patio in the direct sun from late spring to late fall and in the kitchen in the winter. It still puts out new leaves in the winter and it is so rewarding to pluck one when needed. So, zone 4 works as well for the Mediterranean variety

Jenise, the California version is risky here.

We are zone 8b to 9 most years and 8a in years like this when it heads down to -7 or so (that's Celsius, before all you Americans figure we're building igloos).

Which means that the more tender variety will probably work if you choose the best location, but will probably kill back every 4 or 5 years. As I don't think the flavour is significantly different, the Mediterranean version is definitely the one to go for.

Just to confuse things further, this depends very much on which expert you consult. According to Sunset's Western Garden Book, the nearest thing to a gardening 'bible' on the US west coast (but particularly in California), Umbellularia californica (California Laurel/California Bay/Oregon Myrtle) is actually hardier than Laurus nobilis (Sweet Bay). That might seem to fly in the face of common sense until you find out that California Bay grows not just in California's coast range but also in the Sierra Nevada foothills, far from the moderating influence of the water and with winter cold extremes not that different from here.

To mix things up even more, Sunset maps the West into different zones than the USDA ones. Sunset zone 5 roughly coincides with USDA 8b and includes Seattle and place surrounded by water on Puget Sound, zone 4 lines up with USDA 8a and includes the immediate the coast north of Everett, also the Vancouver area. Sunset recommends Sweet Bay only down to zone 5 but says California Bay is OK in zone 4 as well. A more local 'bible', Russell Link's Landscaping for Wildlife in the Pacific Northwest (which uses the Sunset zones) also mentions California Bay on a relatively short list of broadleafed evergreen trees that work here. So I'd say California Bay should work fine here and put Sweet Bay in the worth-a-try category (what's one zone among friends, whether Sunset or USDA? ) Of course, they're probably both getting tested this month, although I've read that California Bay has been documented to survive (presumably short times) at -25 F.

For those trying to figure out which one they have, as Jo Ann said, California Bay has a more slender leaf, although that doesn't help much if you don't have both in front of you. Sweet Bay also has a bit of a ruffled edge to the leaf while the California Bay is more straight. FWIW, I have what I think is a so-far small Sweet Bay that does fine on Whidbey Island. Finally, for those of you away from the West Coast, Sunset recommends what Christina does with her Sweet Bay - planting in a container and bringing inside when temps approach 20 F.

Good post, Mark
For those of you who are really into your gardens, you will notice that there are different microclimates in different areas of your yard. Knowing this, and knowing which side of your house is usually the warmest and supports plant life that might be one or two numbers out of your zone (either side), I would say risk it. But, know where! I have some things growing outside that is said to not grow or winter over in this area (e.g. Indian Paintbrush (aka India Pink), kaffir lime, mandevilla, jasmine, to name a few. With just a little protection against lengthy hard freezes, or scorchers, everything is doing just fine. But, this has truly been trial and error. Also, I have never seen a laurel that wasn't hardy! Have you

[Robin Garr]

There's probably some regulation against that, probably the same one that forbids harvesting chanterelles there (regulators ignorant of biology). Not that a few bits of biota might have accidentally followed ME home from time to time...

What can I say? I didn't see any signs, and they didn't pat us down on the way out.

they didn't pat us down on the way out.

That's cause they knew if they did you'd be back whether there were mushrooms or not!

Celia, I love the Lorena Bobbit thought, there have been times that has crossed my mind but not for the tree episodes.

Robert...no divorce, too many years invested and now at 45 +,years, I finally have him trained. I'd never give a thought to ever starting training on another husband!

Cynthia, he loves trees as much as I do, but it is one of those "Men are like Waffles, Women are Like Spaghetti" things. He was only thinking in one little square of his waffle brain, "this is what I am doing at the moment, and this is what I MUST do to get it accomplished"!
Actually the tree is not part of our master landscaping plan, and is in a corner of the yard way in back. I don't see it until I need to pick and none of the neighbors see it , and the only time Gene sees it is when he is parking the RV or raking up the corner.