Doctor Larry! Doctor Larry! Dough help needed!

[Jenise]

So last week I had two bread flops in a row. In one case I subbed 25% wheat for bread flour, and in the other--well, can't quite remember what I did. BUT, in both cases I used Red Star Platinum yeast instead of the Fleischman's Rapid Rise I used in the first couple (and had run out of). Yesterday I tried again, exact same recipe I've been doing:

4 c bread flour
1 c water
1 c starter
1/4 tsp yeast
1 tsp salt

Mix shaggy dough in about 30 seconds, let rise overnight (about 18 hours), proof, 2-4 hours, bake.

Here's yesterday's dough when I checked it this morning after 16 hours looking very little different than it did at the beginning.

DoughWorst.jpg

Here's what my doughs usually look like after the first rise:

DoughBest.jpg

What's gone wrong? Little Larry looks and smells good. He's been used and fed regularly. HELP!

[David M. Bueker]

Water too hot? Killed the yeast?

Well, clearly, dead yeast. But did you do it or was the packet spoiled?

If your sourdough starter is alive and well, and the bread didn't rise at all, here are some possible reasons:

1. The water you used was over 110-115 F and killed the yeast.
2. The commercial yeast might be dead; proof it. But even w/o the commercial yeast it should haven risen.
3. The rising location was too hot or too cold.
4. You didn't add salt and the dough has gone slack.

If your starter is healthy and bubbly, I'd lean toward #1.

Try it again and use cool water, but make sure your starter is alive and vigorous.

[Jenise]

I have only used water straight from the tap, neither hot nor cold. So nix on that explanation.

Agree re the yeast--it SHOULD have risen.

Rising location's excellent. My house at this time of year runs 60 nights, 70F days. The dough bowl goes into a drawer where it stays probably 65-68 constant.

Nope, salt's in there. I taste the raw dough.

To review, my first loaf was good but not amazing, it was Jim Lahey's recipe for an overnight no-knead bread. It was not written to include a starter, just yeast. I added my starter anyway, a "let's just see what happens" experiment.

My 4-cup recipe was the result of making Loaf #1 a second time, but oops forgot the salt. So I added salt to an extra cup of flour and worked that in, figuring it would fail. Nope, loaf #2 was spectacular. So was Loaf #3, which was identical to #2 except this time the extra flour and the salt went in at the beginning like they should. Loaf #4: an identical success, maybe even prettier.

I was churning out a loaf every other day. I deliberately held off making another loaf for four days to give the starter a chance to build up. This is the one that got 25% whole wheat. Failure. Then another. And now this.

[Jenise]

Well, clearly, dead yeast. But did you do it or was the packet spoiled?

Brand new package.

Maybe it's the whole wheat flour. Do you have any tribbles handy you can test it on?

[Robin Garr]

I'm just remembering how there was a huge yeast shortage at the start of the pandemic. I wonder if the industry could have sent out some crap packages when they geared up to fill the gap?

[Jenise]

Maybe it's the whole wheat flour. Do you have any tribbles handy you can test it on?

That was two failures ago. This failure was 100% bread flour, as the other successful loaves were.

Jenise: Where do you store your starter?

After I feed my starter I let it sit on the counter until it gets bubbly and then I store it in the refrigerator . You're supposed to let the starter come up to room temp before using, but I never do. I just let the mixed starter and dough warm up overnight during its first rise.

If you let the starter out for several days without feeding every day, the starter can run out of food and not rise well.

WW flour can lessen the rise because its sharp edges cut the gluten strands, but it should still rise (and that's not your problem anyway). I usually keep my sourdough bread at least 50% white flour, but I've been known to cut that to 25% or even 0 percent. One trick is to add a bit of gluten flour Bob's Red Mill has some).

Ultimately, though, it's probably Obama's fault.

[Jenise]

Jenise: Where do you store your starter?

After I feed my starter I let it sit on the counter until it gets bubbly and then I store it in the refrigerator . You're supposed to let the starter come up to room temp before using, but I never do. I just let the mixed starter and dough warm up overnight during its first rise.

Exactly like this. In this case, I removed the discard, fed it a teaspoon of flour, left it at room temp and added it to the dough about five hours later. I fed the starter and put it in the fridge. I've been leaving it out for an hour or two to ensure it was reactive, but I can't swear I did this time as I knew I wouldn't be baking again for 5 or 6 days.

Jenise: Where do you store your starter?

After I feed my starter I let it sit on the counter until it gets bubbly and then I store it in the refrigerator . You're supposed to let the starter come up to room temp before using, but I never do. I just let the mixed starter and dough warm up overnight during its first rise.

Exactly like this. In this case, I removed the discard, fed it a teaspoon of flour, left it at room temp and added it to the dough about five hours later. I fed the starter and put it in the fridge. I've been leaving it out for an hour or two to ensure it was reactive, but I can't swear I did this time as I knew I wouldn't be baking again for 5 or 6 days.

We might be getting closer. Typically, for feeding you discard half the starter and feed the starter with the same amount you discarded. E.g., my starters are 1 cup in volume. I discard half a cup, then add 1/2 cup of flour and the same amount of water. I let the newly fed starter out for a day, then refrigerate it until I want to use it. Otherwise, I use the refrigerated starter and mix it with the flour and water I'm using to make a loaf of bread before I feed it.

For pure sourdough, I usually do an overnight rise. Here are the steps I take for my usual recipes:

1. I remove the jar of starter from the fridge.
2. I put 1/2 cup starter in mixing bowl.
3. I add flour, water, salt, +/- oil, other ingredients and knead it (sometimes I use autolyse and/or kneading).
4. I cover the bowl and place it in warm spot.
5. I feed the remaining jar of starter with 1/2 cup flour and 1/2 cup water, let it sit on the counter till it gets real bubbly, then return it to the fridge.
6. The next morning, I examine whether or not the bread has doubled in volume. If it hasn't, I just wait until it does. If I'm in a hurry I may add 1/4 tsp yeast, but a long, slow rise makes for good flavor.

Your statement, "In this case, I removed the discard, fed it a teaspoon of flour, left it at room temp and added it to the dough about five hours later" makes me wonder if you gave the starter enough time to feed and raise the dough. I'd add the starter at the front end.

<over>

[Jenise]

I have about 1.75 cups of starter now. I have been using a cup in each loaf, then adding 1/2 c ea flour and water to the remaining 3/4 cup.

The act of, in this particular case, removing the discard and feeding it a little for use a few hours later was the result of me reading, over the preceding few days, Ken Forkish's book Flour Water Salt Yeast: which convinced me that I was doing things wrong even though I'd literally lucked into pretty damned perfect results. I had tried to read this when I first got the starter from you and it just hit me like gibberish. I had to start baking for it to make sense. Once I had three perfect loafs under my belt, I decided now's the time to find out how to do it right. I don't want to just follow recipes, I want to understand WHY things work.

I suspect, in spite of all the attention it got, that I screwed up my starter. So I fed it a few hours ago. Would you recommend I discard/feed it again before I go to bed tonight? Then again in the morning?

Leave it alone for now, and put it in the fridge tonight before bed and use it tomorrow--giving a little extra time for the rise because the starter needs to warm up, or just leave it out if you're baking early in the morning. Either should work, but with different timing.

I've read that book, but I don't remember the techniques. Obviously, I don't use them.

[Jenise]

I'm leaving for an overnight camping trip in the morning and not back until Thursday evening (yay! long drive! distance! different bed!). Can't bake until Friday earliest. I just fed it, as per my earlier threats having not read your note until now. I'll refrigerate it first thing a.m.