The smell of an empty wine glass -- some thoughts.

During a wine tasting in Las Vegas in May, I noticed that some of the wines delivered a wonderful aroma after the glass was empty while others left no aroma at all. I've been recording the strength of the aroma to my tasting notes over the past several weeks, and have the beginnings of some thoughts about the phenomena.

Do the rest of you folks notice this effect?

A few preliminary conclusions:

1. It's very important to smell the empty glass before pouring a new wine into a glass. If the glass hasn't been used before during the tasting, this will identify off odors, such as detergent; if the glass has been used before -- say at an offline where one is tasting more than one wine -- the odor of the previous wine may very well affect the tasting of the second wine, and the glass requires rinsing.

2. There seems to be a strong correlation between how good a wine is and how strong the aroma is in the empty glass.

3. It is sometimes possible to identify flaws in the empty glass that were not as apparent in the glass with the wine in it. That was certainly true for a very faintly corked Italian wine I had three weeks ago. But I found a sewage smell in an empty CdR glass two weeks ago; the sewage smell wasn't apparent in the wine, although the fruit was much less forward than I would have expected.

4. The effect seems stronger in different glasses. If this proves out, it might be a way to compare glasses before purchase.

All in all, a new and interesting aspect to me of this endlessly fascinating hobby of ours.

Regards, Bob

As Mr Electric said to Mr Propane, "I knew that."

I've definitely noticed the aroma left in my glass once it's empty, but never gave it too much thought. Most of the time I find it somewhat unpleasant. I seem to recall certain sherries leaving a strong urine-like scent.

In Burgundy I've heard it said that the smell of the empty glass is a preview of the wine when aged. I don't know why that would be true...

Another often neglected trick is to smell the empty glass before wine is poured; in restaurants it often stinks of Rinse-Aid.

Very interesting Bob! I have been smelling the glass before I pour the wine, but never thought to smell the empty glass after I tasted the wine. I will certainly do that now. Thanks for the tip!

2. There seems to be a strong correlation between how good a wine is and how strong the aroma is in the empty glass.

I once tasted a 1945 Latour. When the wine was gone the aroma in the glass increased.
'Never had that happen before or since.
Best, Jim

In Burgundy I've heard it said that the smell of the empty glass is a preview of the wine when aged. I don't know why that would be true...

It follows the same logic as saying that leaving a bottle open for a day or two offers a preview of how it'll age: the remnants of the wine in the "empty" glass is far more exposed to oxygen than it is in the bottle, so it oxidizes faster. You've essentially maximized surface-to-volume ratio for maximal rate of oxidation.

Mark Lipton

Of course, Mark, but wine ages in the bottle reductively, doesn't it?

This is the whole problem Oliver, because natural corks have a variable oxygen ingress rate, and I’m talking about minute numbers here, the science of bottle aging is not yet fully understood.
As for aromas lingering in the glass Bob, I find that wines which have long and lingering finishes, the aromas seem to “hang out” even when the glass is empty.

Salute

Of course, Mark, but wine ages in the bottle reductively, doesn't it?

My reply kind of begged that question, didn't it? Whether wine ages reductively or oxidatively, the logic is as I described it. No knowledgeable person that I know really thinks that either of those methods reasonably approximates aging, but they do give you some sort of glimpse into how the wine will develop.

Mark Lipton

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You've essentially maximized surface-to-volume ratio for maximal rate of oxidation.

There's a school of thought which holds that the reason wine smells "better" in crystal glass [than in normal glass] is because there are microscopic imperfections in crystal which allow the wine to get better grip on the glass - making it easier for remnants of the wine to cling to the glass [I seem to recall that the Germans used to call this the "Kirchenfenster" - the church window].

On the other hand, after you've had a Riedel shatter in your hand and damn near take your ring finger off [because you were trying to scrub all the soap stains out of it just so that you could be absolutely certain that the reason the 2005 Donnhoffs are undrinkable is not because of soap stains in the glass but rather because of heat damage in the distribution chain] - after you've had your hand in a splint for two weeks, and taken 10 days worth of antibiotics to make sure you don't get gangrene, and now that your ring finger has a great big honkin' scar on it - you're more than happy to say "To Hell with Crystal".
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There's a school of thought which holds that the reason wine smells "better" in crystal glass [than in normal glass] is because there are microscopic imperfections in crystal which allow the wine to get better grip on the glass - making it easier for remnants of the wine to cling to the glass [I seem to recall that the Germans used to call this the "Kirchenfenster" - the church window].

That sounds a lot like Riedel's marketing propaganda about why their crystal promotes greater sensory impressions of the wine ("modified surfaces" etc.). What this ignores is that "crystal" and glass are really one in the same. Leaded crystal simply involves the addition of lead to displace some of the silicon atoms from the silicate ions in glass. However, that replacement is an isomorphic one, meaning that there is no structural change attendant upon the replacement. So, that claim, like so many of Riedel's, is pure hooey IMO.

On the other hand, after you've had a Riedel shatter in your hand and damn near take your ring finger off [because you were trying to scrub all the soap stains out of it just so that you could be absolutely certain that the reason the 2005 Donnhoffs are undrinkable is not because of soap stains in the glass but rather because of heat damage in the distribution chain] - after you've had your hand in a splint for two weeks, and taken 10 days worth of antibiotics to make sure you don't get gangrene, and now that your ring finger has a great big honkin' scar on it - you're more than happy to say "To Hell with Crystal".

Ouch.

Mark Lipton

Thanks, Oliver. It's definitely important to smell empty glasses before pouring wine -- it's surprising how often restaurant glasses have the smell of detergent. I wonder sometimes if the dishes have the same smell, and adversely affect the food.

I haven't considered this effect before, and your comment on Burgundy may be borne out by my experience with the 2005 Bart Fixin I posted on this morning.

Regards, Bob

Thanks, Jim. I haven't paid much attention to the empty glass effect before, but the 2005 Bart Fixin I reported on today showed an improvement, or at least quite a dramatic, change over an hour or more.

Regards, Bob

Ouch, Nathan.

I'm more relaxed, frankly. I use the Riedel O glasses and wash them in the dishwater. Always smell them when emptying the dishwasher and if there's any odor, I re-run the entire load with the Rinse cycle only.

Regards, Bob

'As for aromas lingering in the glass Bob, I find that wines which have long and lingering finishes, the aromas seem to “hang out” even when the glass is empty."

Thanks for the lead, Victor. I don't have enough data to form a judgment, but that was certainly the case with the 2005 Bart Fixin I reported on this morning.

I'll be alert to that factor in the future.

Regards, Bob

" However, that replacement is an isomorphic one, meaning that there is no structural change attendant upon the replacement. So, that claim, like so many of Riedel's, is pure hooey IMO."

I hadn't thought about that before, Mark. I know I like to drink wine in thinner glasses. May be just psychological, I know. But some thicker glasses may be made with a composite material, which does react differently with wine. Certainly the plastic ones do.

Thanks for the insights.

Regards, Bob