The place for all things wine, focused on serious wine discussions.

Rather Curious Wine Related Behavior--TCA

Moderators: Jenise, Robin Garr, David M. Bueker

no avatar
User

Redwinger

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

4038

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:36 pm

Location

Way Down South In Indiana, USA

Rather Curious Wine Related Behavior--TCA

by Redwinger » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:00 pm

Did you ever notice:

At a tasting when someone declares a wine as corked, a swarm of people immediately converge on the offending bottle for a sniff and even worse a taste. These are not rookies trying to figure out TCA but experienced tasters and I've never been able to figure out this "attraction" to corked wine. Go figure.

Similarly, someone declares the wine corked and immediately holds the glass out so others can take a whiff. They are not looking for confirmation, but more like showing off some prize they won. No thanks! WTF, would I want to screw up my already limited olfactory systemeven more?? If you say it's corked that's good 'nuf for me.

We are a curious lot.
'Winger
Smile, it gives your face something to do!
no avatar
User

Hoke

Rank

Achieving Wine Immortality

Posts

11420

Joined

Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:07 am

Location

Portland, OR

Re: Rather Curious Wine Related Behavior--TCA

by Hoke » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:22 pm

Redwinger wrote:Did you ever notice:

At a tasting when someone declares a wine as corked, a swarm of people immediately converge on the offending bottle for a sniff and even worse a taste. These are not rookies trying to figure out TCA but experienced tasters and I've never been able to figure out this "attraction" to corked wine. Go figure.

Similarly, someone declares the wine corked and immediately holds the glass out so others can take a whiff. They are not looking for confirmation, but more like showing off some prize they won. No thanks! WTF, would I want to screw up my already limited olfactory systemeven more?? If you say it's corked that's good 'nuf for me.

We are a curious lot.
'Winger


I realize you're just ranting here, Bill, but still the annoying pedant kicks in, so I reply:

It's not that I'm attracted to cork taint. Just the opposite. It's that my critical self (and teaching self) wants to experience what the person is experiencing so I can calibrate it properly (What constitutes cork taint for this person? What threshold?), plus it quite often ISN'T cork taint at all, but something else, and the person should realize it (or at least be offered the opportunity to realize it).

That's the thorny side of this issue, for those reps who get abused (often rightfully so) and those waiters who get talked about: quite often they are correct. There are a lot of folks out there who don't understand what cork taint is, interpret any number of other flaws as cork taint, and couldn't tell whether a wine was tainted or not. (And some of them are 'wine authorities', god help us.)

I have been in situations (more numerous than I care to recall) when I've poured someone a wine, like say a marvellously old and complex Barolo, or a strapping young Bordeaux, and had someone sniff at it and tell me it was corked (or the other fall back is VA), when they have no idea what the hell they are talking about.

So for every Mark Lipton, who knows whereof he speaks, there could be a score of poseurs who are aping more knowledgeable people (or perhaps that should read "knowledgeable people", without the "more") and mouthing an objection without understanding what they are talking about.

But I do save my wrath for the folks who are supposed to know better. Whose job it is to know better. Like that bartender that told me the Soave was "supposed to taste that way", or the rep who told Mark he didn't "understand Italian wine."

The people who are at least trying to understand wine...those folks I can make allowances for.

Now c'mere. Smell this. Ya think it's corked? :)
no avatar
User

Redwinger

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

4038

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:36 pm

Location

Way Down South In Indiana, USA

Re: Rather Curious Wine Related Behavior--TCA

by Redwinger » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:18 pm

Hoke,
Would that be the Mark Lipton who brings corked Indian Merlot wherever he shows up? :?
'Winger
Smile, it gives your face something to do!
no avatar
User

Mark Lipton

Rank

Oenochemist

Posts

4338

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:18 pm

Location

Indiana

Re: Rather Curious Wine Related Behavior--TCA

by Mark Lipton » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:17 pm

Redwinger wrote:Hoke,
Would that be the Mark Lipton who brings corked Indian Merlot wherever he shows up? :?
'Winger


Hey, you! :oops: I'll have to invest in one of those magnetic TCA detectors I've seen advertised before bringing another bottle to a jeebus. Actually, a better strategy is probably the TNT one: just have a case of backups handy for that eventuality. And FYI, I also brought a painfully tight De Montille Taillepieds, so there! :lol:

Mark Lipton
no avatar
User

Redwinger

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

4038

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:36 pm

Location

Way Down South In Indiana, USA

Re: Rather Curious Wine Related Behavior--TCA

by Redwinger » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:39 pm

Mark,
My strategy is just to show up at jeebs without wine. No one seems to notice and they can't poke fun at my wines.
BP
Smile, it gives your face something to do!
no avatar
User

Redwinger

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

4038

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:36 pm

Location

Way Down South In Indiana, USA

Re: Rather Curious Wine Related Behavior--TCA

by Redwinger » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:42 pm

Hoke wrote:Now c'mere. Smell this. Ya think it's corked? :)

Hoke,
No more Roar Rosella's for you. :P
'Winger
Smile, it gives your face something to do!
no avatar
User

Hoke

Rank

Achieving Wine Immortality

Posts

11420

Joined

Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:07 am

Location

Portland, OR

Re: Rather Curious Wine Related Behavior--TCA

by Hoke » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:01 pm

Redwinger wrote:
Hoke wrote:Now c'mere. Smell this. Ya think it's corked? :)

Hoke,
No more Roar Rosella's for you. :P
'Winger


Thank You!
no avatar
User

Bob Ross

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

5703

Joined

Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:39 pm

Location

Franklin Lakes, NJ

Re: Rather Curious Wine Related Behavior--TCA

by Bob Ross » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:37 pm

"My strategy is just to show up at jeebs without wine. No one seems to notice and they can't poke fun at my wines."

I did that once -- brought two bottles of wine in a beautiful black carrying case -- took the case home, and the bottles were still there when I went to re-stock.

As I remember, people were complaining that there was a two bottle limit, and "everyone" had exceeded the limit. :)
no avatar
User

Sam Platt

Rank

I am Sam, Sam I am

Posts

2330

Joined

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:22 pm

Location

Indiana, USA

Re: Rather Curious Wine Related Behavior--TCA

by Sam Platt » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:56 pm

I have had many obviously corked wines at home and in restaurants over the years. On the two occasions that someone declare a wine "corked" at a tasting I could not discern the TCA at all. In fact I thought one of the wines was quite good. Almost all of the other tasters made an nasty face on sniffing/tasting the wine after it was called into question. I think it was mob psychology at work.
Sam

"The biggest problem most people have is that they think they shouldn't have any." - Tony Robbins
no avatar
User

Redwinger

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

4038

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:36 pm

Location

Way Down South In Indiana, USA

Re: Rather Curious Wine Related Behavior--TCA

by Redwinger » Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:08 pm

Sam Platt wrote:I have had many obviously corked wines at home and in restaurants over the years. On the two occasions that someone declare a wine "corked" at a tasting I could not discern the TCA at all. In fact I thought one of the wines was quite good. Almost all of the other tasters made an nasty face on sniffing/tasting the wine after it was called into question. I think it was mob psychology at work.

Sam,
If I find a wine particularly to my liking and if I'm in one of my curmudgeonly moods, I may declare it corked and let the mob rule. More of the good stuff for me.
'Winger
Smile, it gives your face something to do!
no avatar
User

Nathan Smyth

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

258

Joined

Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:20 am

Re: Rather Curious Wine Related Behavior--TCA

by Nathan Smyth » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:40 am

I have had many obviously corked wines at home and in restaurants over the years. On the two occasions that someone declare a wine "corked" at a tasting I could not discern the TCA at all. In fact I thought one of the wines was quite good. Almost all of the other tasters made an nasty face on sniffing/tasting the wine after it was called into question. I think it was mob psychology at work.

Remember, though, that sensitivity to TCA [like sensitivity to pretty much anything, involving any of the five senses] will have a bell curve of variation throughout the population.

Some people will be oblivious to a small amount of TCA, whereas that same dosage could prove undrinkably noxious to others.

Over the course of the last two or three years, I've started to suffer from the same problem that Laube does - I've had numerous bottles from the same production runs that all showed very small amounts of [what I call "background"] TCA, leading me to conclude that there's systemic contamination of the wineries in question. And [not surprisingly, but nevertheless still depressingly] I'm even getting this in screw-capped wines.

Although it occurs to me that if a vintner mixes in a vat before bottling, then it only takes one bad barrel to ruin an entire production run.

BTW, I wonder how much TCA testing costs? If I were a vintner with a high threshold for intolerance to TCA, then I think I'd be inclined to test all of my barrels before pouring them together in the vat.

I've also found that soap stains on glassware and in decanters can very effectively mimic the taste of TCA. [Although, having said that, I fear that someone like Chris Coad will now tell me that TCA is tasteless. And maybe someone like SFJoe would know the extent to which "soapy" compounds tend to contain chlorine - or elements which behave like chlorine.]

And I think that decanters are a particularly problematic culprit because, given their bizarre shapes, they tend to be nigh unto impossible to wash and wipe properly, and there are darned few non-sudsy cleaners on the market [anyone know of a source for non-sudsy ammonia?].

One final thing - I've found that nothing educates and exercises your palate quite like riesling & champagne, and sipping a riesling or a champagne prior to tasting a red wine will make you sensitive to astronomically low levels of TCA [or whatever the hell the contaminant is].
no avatar
User

Nathan Smyth

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

258

Joined

Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:20 am

Re: Rather Curious Wine Related Behavior--TCA

by Nathan Smyth » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:45 am

Redwinger wrote:At a tasting when someone declares a wine as corked

Maybe a little off topic, but if this is one of those tastings where you're limited to a single glass for tasting multiple wines, then you need to ditch any glass which has had bad wine in it, and ask for [hopefully you won't have to "demand"] a new glass.

PS: In re the "soapy glass" phenomenon, as above - if one person has a clean glass and the other person has a soapy glass, then the same wine can [indeed will] taste radically different to the two of them.
no avatar
User

Ian Sutton

Rank

Spanna in the works

Posts

2558

Joined

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:10 pm

Location

Norwich, UK

Re: Rather Curious Wine Related Behavior--TCA

by Ian Sutton » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:08 pm

I've encountered the soapy glass phenomenom a few times recently. I always give a good rinse inside & out with hot water, but need to train ' the brains of the operation' a little better :wink:
no avatar
User

Mark Lipton

Rank

Oenochemist

Posts

4338

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:18 pm

Location

Indiana

Re: Rather Curious Wine Related Behavior--TCA

by Mark Lipton » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:51 pm

Nathan Smyth wrote:Remember, though, that sensitivity to TCA [like sensitivity to pretty much anything, involving any of the five senses] will have a bell curve of variation throughout the population.


Not likely to be a bell curve, actually. Most likely a Poisson distribution, but it's the same idea. In case the term Poisson distribution doesn't ring any bells, just reread the first 3-400 pp. of Gravity's Rainbow to reacquaint yourself with the term.

Some people will be oblivious to a small amount of TCA, whereas that same dosage could prove undrinkably noxious to others.


Yup. I had a semi-surreal experience while tasting with three winegeek friends in NZ in '01 when we all sampled a Pinot Noir at Ata Rangi in Martiborough: I knew before tasting it that it was corked, but one of my winegeek friends said "Aha! I never knew what a corked wine smelled like before. To me, this just smells lifeless and flat." He knew that he was TCA-insensitive but had never had the experience of a sensitive like me pointing out an example to him for calibration purposes (he's in his 60s and has been drinking wine for decades more than I have).


Over the course of the last two or three years, I've started to suffer from the same problem that Laube does - I've had numerous bottles from the same production runs that all showed very small amounts of [what I call "background"] TCA, leading me to conclude that there's systemic contamination of the wineries in question. And [not surprisingly, but nevertheless still depressingly] I'm even getting this in screw-capped wines.


Hopefully, you won't write scathing criticisms of wineries based on your hypersensitivity, Nathan.

Although it occurs to me that if a vintner mixes in a vat before bottling, then it only takes one bad barrel to ruin an entire production run.


That really depends on just how badly corked that barrel is and how much it's diluted. We all have some baseline threshold for TCA detection, so if the concentration lies below your detection threshold you would never consider it tainted.

I've also found that soap stains on glassware and in decanters can very effectively mimic the taste of TCA. [Although, having said that, I fear that someone like Chris Coad will now tell me that TCA is tasteless. And maybe someone like SFJoe would know the extent to which "soapy" compounds tend to contain chlorine - or elements which behave like chlorine.]


I'm someone like SFJoe. No natural soap contains any chlorine, nor does any synthetic detergent that I'm aware of. I can't say that I've ever had that sensation, either, but it's certainly possible for two different molecules to share similar smells. What could happen is that soap could sequester TCA or a TCA-like contaminants from wine or water in micelles. If that doesn't get washed out, it could lead to TCA-containing deposits on the glass.

And I think that decanters are a particularly problematic culprit because, given their bizarre shapes, they tend to be nigh unto impossible to wash and wipe properly, and there are darned few non-sudsy cleaners on the market [anyone know of a source for non-sudsy ammonia?].


Sure, I have gallons of aqueous ammonium hydroxide in my labs. There might be some problems getting your hands on aqueous ammonia because of its possible use in explosive manufacture. As an alternative, just make a dilute solution of hydrogen peroxide and rinse your decanters with that, washing them thoroughly with filtered/distilled water afterward.

Mark Lipton

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ClaudeBot and 19 guests

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign