What does "lieux-dits" mean?

As in the following sentence: "The Chablis Bel-Air et Clardys is a blend of 2 lieux-dits planted with 12 year-old vines, with 25 centimetres of humus and limestone sub-soil."

Many thanks. Bob

lieux-dits

Locality per my wife's French tutor, Bob.

Lieu-dit means "named place." So a vineyard (or area of a vineyard) that has a name. All 1er crus and Grand Crus are lieux-dits, and sometimes it is used to describe sections of 1er cru/GC vineyards. But 99.9% of the time when you see the term used, it means a particular vineyard that is not a 1er cru.

[Robin Garr]

Adding to Bucko's translation, Bob, as I understand it, <I>Lieux-dit</I> is only used in a few places in France - Burgundy and Alsace, for instance. Like the similar <i>climat</i>, it's a small geographical designation - a single vineyard, maybe - that's traditionally recognized but not legally designated a Cru or AOC.

I may stand corrected on some of the subtleties, but if memory serves, this is the general idea of it.

Thanks, the full paragraph reads:

The Chablis Bel-Air et Clardys is a blend of 2 lieux-dits planted with 12 year-old vines, with 25 centimetres of humus and limestone sub-soil. The Moors' top Chablis cuvée, La Rosette, is from a lieu-dit alongside 1er Les Beauregards, and enjoys classic Kimmeridgean limestone soil and very low yields.

If I have it right, the Bel-Air et Clardys is a blend from two vineyards; the La Rosette is from a single vineyard.

All this in Burgundy, of course.

Right?

Thanks, Bob

I believe there is a legal aspect in the sense that the lieux-dit are strictly defined geographically (some of them are at least), and you mustn't use the lieux-dit on the label if the wine does not come from that place.

The first area I came across the term for was in Beaujolais. Cote du Py, for example is a lieux-dit in Morgon. I think the term climat is also used in Beaujolais.

"Lieu-dit" has a wider application than just to vineyards. Here, in the French speaking part of Belgium, it is applied to names of hamlets and other small locations below the status of "commune". I think that the same applies in France. I am not sure whether there is any legal definition of the use of the term or of the use of such names.

Here is a link to the definition of "lieu-dit" on French Wikipedia -

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieu-dit

Thanks Steve and Tim. Regards, Bob

I agree with Dale that the best translation is probably "named place".

I had to translate a large document for a Loire Valley wine producer who featured various "lieux dits" on his labels.

The problem here is that French wine law does not recognize such geographical descriptions...

The term is thus a very loose one, without any legal significance.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Thanks Alex. Regards, Bob

I had to translate a large document for a Loire Valley wine producer who featured various "lieux dits" on his labels.

The problem here is that French wine law does not recognize such geographical descriptions...

Maybe not in the Loire (I'll let others research that one), but it certainly does in Burgundy. Here are are the French texts for Beaune and Morgon ACs:
http://www.inao.gouv.fr/public/produits ... SOLIDE=671
http://www.inao.gouv.fr/public/produits ... SOLIDE=174
As far as I can see there is no reference to geographical definitions of climat here, but I believe that is taken for granted. Pitiot and Servant in 'The Wines of Burgundy' state, in a section headed 'Communal appellations with "climat" added': Within the territory of each village, the vineyards are divided into named plots whose location and boundaries are carefully recorded on the land-registration map ("cadestre"). These plots, of which there are several thousand, are generally known in Burgundy as "climats". (Reference to the AC documents I linked to shows that lieu-dit and climat are officially regarded as the same thing.)

Robin, that's not really true. Even though lieux-dits are used more prominently in Burgundy and Alsace, they exist and are used to some degree everywhere. There are a lot of lieux dits in e.g. the Rhone Valley, from a purely viticultural standpoint.

From a borader standpoint, lieux-dits are used EVERYWHERE in France, going back to Napolean etc. The famous and rather interesting Cartes de Cassini shows the historical lieux-dits of France throughout the country.

http://cassini.seies.net/

Steve,

Let me take a stab at explaining this, even though it's a lot easier to do in person.

A lieux-dit is pretty much what we would consider an individual vineyard. A climat is one or a collection of vineyards that are together referred to as one.

Look at the BIVB map of Chassagne-Montrachet: http://www.vins-bourgogne.fr/index.php?p=77

Find Morgeot. Morgeot is a climat that consists of the lieux-dit Morgeot (you can see the lieux-dit on the map) and also the other surrounding lieux-dits such as Vignes Blanches, Boudriottes, etc.

So if you own land in the lieux-dits Moregot, Boudriottes and Vignes Blanches, you can put them all together and bottle it as

Chassagne Montrachet 1er Cru
Morgeot

or three speparate bottlings.

The climat Morgeot is not really a vineyard in the traditional sense, although (somehwat confusingly) there is an individual lieu-dit also called Morgeot - which is what you see on the map - that is a vineyard as we would think of it.

This isn't really that different than Dutton Ranch in California or She Vineyard - niether one is really a single vineyard in the traditional sense, but you sure can drive to it. Hence Dutton or Shea is a climat, and there are many individual parts of which they are comprised.

I think someone mentioned Echezeaux: same thing. Echezeaux is made up of the lieux-dits les Treux, Echezeaux au Dessous, part of Orveaux, etc. Echezeaux is the climat. There are a handful of constituents...

A lieux-dit is pretty much what we would consider an individual vineyard. A climat is one or a collection of vineyards that are together referred to as one.

OK. Strike-out the last sentence in my previous post. But my main point was to try to establish that they are relevant in wine law - even below premier cru level.

Does the hierarchical usage of climat and lieu-dit apply outside of Burgundy too?

Steve,

A "lieu dit" is simply part of a "commune".

Even in Burgundy, I do not believe it can be associated with a "climat", and its meaning is unrestricted, therefore of little or no importance.
"La poudre aux yeux"...

Using such a name is of doubtful legality since the appellation system, insofar as I know, does not acknowledge "lieux-dit" on their own.
In other words, it is an excellent way of deceiving the consumer, by putting a name on the label that implies the wine comes from somewhere when there is nobody to acknowledge or control the origin...

Obviously, the average consumer does not realize this, and is easy to hoodwink.

The most common definition in French of a "lieu dit" is simply a hamlet, but it can also be a patch of land that simply has acquired a name through the centuries.

The appellation authorities let this one slip through, but I think this is not good at all, and should be considered in the same category as "vieilles vignes" and "vieille en fûts de chêne" - nebulous and untrustworthy much more often than not.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Even in Burgundy, I do not believe it can be associated with a "climat", and its meaning is unrestricted, therefore of little or no importance.
"La poudre aux yeux"...

Alex,

That's not true.

For example, there is one Red Grand Cru Corton. The appellation laws specifically state of which lieux-dits it is comprised, e.g., le Corton, Merchaudes, Perrierres, Clos des Cortons de Faively. That's the most obvious example.

Same in Chablis with premier crus, e.g. the Premier Cru Montee de Tonnerre is comprised of the cadsatral lieux-dits Montee de Tonnerre, Chapelots, Pied d'aloup, Sous pied d'aloup an Cote de Brechain. Montee de Tonnerre, the primary name is listed under the category " NOMS DES CLIMATS CLASSÉS". The lieux-dits are specifically restricted, are listed with the corresponding section of the cadatral maps, and are speficially associated with climats.

In either case they are absolutely written into viticultural law.

Steve, I'm less clear about other wine regions; My best guess would be considering the Cote Blonde or Cote Brune as climats with associated lieux-dits associated, but I'm honestly not sure.

Steve, I'm less clear about other wine regions; My best guess would be considering the Cote Blonde or Cote Brune as climats with associated lieux-dits associated, but I'm honestly not sure.

Yes, Livingstone-Learmonth names quite a few of the lieux-dits in the N. Rhone, from virtually every commune, and I'm pretty sure that you're correct in naming the Cotes Brune and Blonde as climats.

Mark

Using such a name is of doubtful legality since the appellation system, insofar as I know, does not acknowledge "lieux-dit" on their own. In other words, it is an excellent way of deceiving the consumer, by putting a name on the label that implies the wine comes from somewhere when there is nobody to acknowledge or control the origin...

I have certainly seen that on a bottle of Burgundy - a brand being stuck on a 1er Cru wine by a negociant giving the impression (to me at least) that the brand was a vineyard. Chanson Père et Fils, Beaune-Bastion Premier Cru, 2000.

Steve,

Alex, my apologies - don't read tone into my comments, but I do wish to correct that the implication that the INAO does not allow lieux-dits on the label. I could give a lot of examples, but hopefully sufficient for proof would be:

Chablis 1er Cru Cote de Troesmes, Jean-Pierre Grossot.
Cote des Troesmes is legally the lieu-dit. Troesmes is the climat. Beauroy is the 1er Cru.

Bertrand Ambroise Corton-Rognets. Practically every other Corton Grand Cru made lists the individual lieu-dit.

Chateau de la Maltroye Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru Morgeot les Vignes Blanches. Morgeot is the climat. les Vignes Blanches is the lieu-dit.

Also, if my Rhone theory is correct, which I have already admitted may not be and would love for an expert on the area to correct me, how about Rene Rostaing Cote Rotie la Landonne.

Steve,

I've seen stretches too. But (without being familiar with the Chanson bottling, I would like to see the fine print). As long as all the wine comes from premier cru vineyards, there seems to be some available stretching whereby one names the bottle Appellation Beaune 1er Cru Controlee and attaches some neat, deceptive name depending on the size of the letters.

Which actually returns us to further calrify the original question. For a Premier Cru in Burgundy, there are not e.g., a number of APPELLATIONS in 1er Cru Meursault. There is Appellation Meursault 1er Cru with individual climats, or if one wants to be more specific, lieux-dits that may be listed. Period.

e.g.

Meursault 1er Cru
Meursault 1er Cru Charmes
Meursault 1er Cru au Charmes de Dessous

Take your pick in order of greater specifity, it's still one appellation. 1 is the appellation comrpised of every climat. 2 is the climat which collectively contain all the lieux-dits. 3 is the recognized lieux-dits, pretty much what we would think of as an individual vineyard and progressivley more specific...

I've seen stretches too. But (without being familiar with the Chanson bottling, I would like to see the fine print). As long as all the wine comes from premier cru vineyards, there seems to be some available stretching whereby one names the bottle Appellation Beaune 1er Cru Controlee and attaches some neat, deceptive name depending on the size of the letters.

The text on the label was precisely "Beaune-Bastion". I am familiar with the text size regulations and was surpised to see that "Bastion" was the same size (and font) as "Beaune", and both words were dominant on the label. I can only presume that because "everyone" knows Bastion is not a climat (lieudit, vineyard or whatever) it is not controlled and they can get away with it. "Bastion" was not in the smaller AC text, but often that is the case even if it appears elsewhere. Apparently it is a well-known brand, in the UK at least, but I had not heard of it.

(I understand and accept your other points BTW)

Ah, here is an image.
http://www.lejsl.com/femmes/consommatio ... L0162.html

Alan,

My expertise is in Bordeaux, not Burgundy, but I would ask you to consider this from
- a linguistic approach
- a legal approach

Linguistically, a lieu dit is simpy a part of a commune on a land register. It is no different anywhere in the country because that is what the expression means. Including in the wine industry.

Therefore, the wine laws can define a cru by mentioning what lieu dits belong to it. Yes. This is only normal.

But the lieu dit on it's own, that is another whole issue, and that is where we cannot seem to agree.

Let us take Burgundy, for instance, more your field than mine.
I could see a wine label with a name of a Grand Cru and then, perhaps, the name of a lieu dit within that Grand Cru. However, I believe that this is not a common occurence, and I'm unsure as to the legality of mentioning the lieu dit. The reason is simple: how can you prove that the wine comes from there rather than another part of the Grand Cru?

I'm willing to believe that there is a *tolerance* for such labelling, but it seems pretty murky to me.

But where the issue takes on a different proportion is the cooperative cellar I worked with. They had a whole range of "lieu dit" wines. Now there, I believe that this is truly confusing and not to be recommended.
The thrust of the cellar's marketing was that their lieux-dits were sorts of sub-appellations. Well, there is no hierarchy of lieux-dits, and no one to prove one way or another that the wine actually comes from there. It is in this spirit that I say that the expression is largely meaningless, and misleading.

I have no doubt that you love fine wine as much as I do. My disagreement is is good faith, and I'll be glad to continue the discussion.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Alan,

I've just reread your e-mail.

I suppose the difference of opinion is that you consider a climat a lieu dit whereas they are not the same thing to me, i.e. do not mean the same thing in French unless I am very much mistaken.

The former is a specific terroir, a named vineyard.
The latter is a named place, and very much larger.

It is not inconceivable that a lieu dit could also be a climat, but rather unlikely.

In the example you cited above (Meursault Charmes), the sub-division of the vineyard describes a plot on a cadastral map, not a lieu dit, which would encompass it. It would not be worthy, for instance, of a small sign one sees all over France indicating a lieu-dit.

In summary, parts of vineyards are (tiny) places with names, but not named places!

As for controlling the use of named places on labels, that is something I could check with a person I know who works for the INAO if you'd like me too. I think the authorities close their eyes to the ambiguity of it all.

Best regards,
Alex R.

In summary, parts of vineyards are (tiny) places with names, but not named places!

I sure hope Donald Rumsfeld follows this forum . . .