Anyone have experience using room air conditioners for a cellar?

Some friends and I are contemplating building a cellar in the rather large (6'4" tall) crawlspace under one of our houses. The cellar will be a walk-in, something on the order of 18x10x6. The crawlspace is not air conditioned, and normal summer temps here are >90...so I think passive cellaring is pretty much out of the question. On the plus side, noise isn't really an issue, within reason.

I haven't heard good things about any of the purpose-built cellar cooling units (e.g., Whisperkool, etc). Across the board I have heard they are unreliable and about 2-4x the price for the same BTU's as a normal window-unit AC. It seems like just using a window unit and some kind of simple humidity source (like a vaporizer on a timer) would be cheaper, more reliable, and just as effective.

Does anyone have experience trying this approach? I'd like to hear any stories, positive or negative.

Thanks,
William.

I have a passive cellar (below grade, well insulated), but carved out a place on one side and stuck in an old AC. I turn it on maybe once a summer for a day, when we're at end of a long hot spell and temps are above 66F in cellar. I'm not looking for perfect 55F. But my conditions don't sound like yours. First of all, if you're not below grade, you're going to need a LOT of insulation no matter what cooling system you use.

As to using AC, besides humidity, your other issue is that you'll need to trick the thermostat if you want it down below 64F.

I haven't heard good things about any of the purpose-built cellar cooling units (e.g., Whisperkool, etc). Across the board I have heard they are unreliable and about 2-4x the price for the same BTU's as a normal window-unit AC. It seems like just using a window unit and some kind of simple humidity source (like a vaporizer on a timer) would be cheaper, more reliable, and just as effective.

There are more differences between those cooling units and a standard AC unit than just humidity and cost. The goal of a standard AC unit is to cool down a space in the shortest possible time; OTOH, a cooling unit for wine is designed to keep temperature both constant and cool. Therefore, a standard AC unit might cause more substantial temperature changes in the crawlspace than a cooling unit would. Having said that, like Dale, I have a mostly passively cooled cellar with an AC unit stuck in a wall some distance removed. When temperatures in the cellar climb too high, the AC unit kicks in, but applies a very gradual cooling trend.

I'm also surprised that you've heard such negative things about cooling units. I know a few people who've bought Breezaire units and liked them, and I think that the same holds true for Whisperkool.

Mark Lipton

You are way ahead with a regular cellar cooler - that is what it was designed to do. I have a unit that has been plugging away for many years without missing a beat, and cost me around $600 US.

http://www.vintagekeeper.com/web/new/

It now has a new faceplate, but still costs the same - see ChillrPlus - 3000 BTU/hr.

Cut a hole between your studs, stick it in and set it, and then forget it.

Hopefully, Paul Winalski will chime in but I believe that he bought some adapter kit (I think it overrides the thermostat) and he's been using a standard AC for many years.

Tom T.

I don't know whether to make a separate thread, but I have a somewhat related question: I have a relatively cool indoor closet that I'm using for the bulk of my collection. It's a small closet interior (maybe 8x5x5) to my townhouse. It's relatively cool. But, there is really no access to exterior walls.

Is there any cheap, pracitcal way to add another lavel of cooling to such a closet? I suppose I could vent it through the ceiling into the crawlspace?

I don't know whether to make a separate thread, but I have a somewhat related question: I have a relatively cool indoor closet that I'm using for the bulk of my collection. It's a small closet interior (maybe 8x5x5) to my townhouse. It's relatively cool. But, there is really no access to exterior walls.

Is there any cheap, pracitcal way to add another lavel of cooling to such a closet? I suppose I could vent it through the ceiling into the crawlspace?

Can't you vent to the interior of your house? As long as it is far enough away from living/sleeping space that any noise isn't objectionable.

[Jenise]

William K,

In the two cellars we've built, we have used regular room air conditioners. The first one we bought cost us about $200; the last one was only $100. If we'd had to cool an interior space where aesthetics were an issue we'd have bought a built-for-purpose unit, but that's not been the case.

And our #1 reason wasn't cost. It was actually that if the unit breaks down, we can throw the POS away and replace it with something we can buy at Lowe's that day. No down time, ever. Now Bill's had good luck, but I've heard various stories about all the brands, and in fact the stand-alone Vintage Keeper unit I bought brand new and used for a year between cellars had a cooling unit that crashed when the cooler was just a year old. It was covered by warranty and replaced, but I had to mail the bad unit back before they shipped the new one, and we were without cooling for close to a month. Fortunately the problem occurred during winter, but still, that was why we opted for a cheap window unit in the first place and the experience with the Vintage Keeper, which occurred while we were planning/building cellar #2, convinced us to go with another cheapie window unit once the new cellar was built. We're in a cooler climate than you are so we only have to artificially cool the cellar for about six months of the year as it stays 57-60 F passively. During the warmer months the air conditioner, on which my husband disabled the low set-point (U.S. energy policy causes this to be 70 F I think), runs on a timer about for an hour twice a day which keeps it 60-63 F around the clock without swings or spikes. We don't humidify.

Dale, Dobbs Ferry vs New Orleans and the attendant humidity might make a difference. William, I would think that you would want to lower the temperature in the cellar to around 55 degrees, and that would be really difficult with a window unit. William, if you have that much room down there I would probably try to wall off a room and insulate it well then try the window unit. Barring that I think you are going to have a constant battle on your hands.

I built a small (well...not so small I guess) closet in my unheated garage. In the summer (I'm in the mtns of Northern NewMexico), it gets up into the upper 80's in the garage, so I need some cooling for my cellar. In the summer I let the cellar creep up to 62-63 F. In the winter, I let the temperature drop to the upper 30's afore the heating unit kicks in. It is seldom neede, though.
I bought a standard Sears AC in 1974 & it's still working fine. I do NOT rely on the AC thermostat, though. I are un enjineer, so thought I could do better. I bought a good qality thermostat that's accurate to 1-2 F, with a range for 30F up to 90F. I placed it between the AC and the power supply, and thus (leaving the AC switch on all the time), so my high-tech thermostat regulates the AC running. However, the amperage the AC draws when it turns on it way to much for the thermostat to handle, so I inserted a relay between the AC & power supply to actually handle the switching on/off of the power to the AC.
Only problem I've had is that if I try to keep the temperature too low during a hot spell, the AC will ice up on the cooling fins and quit pumping out cold air. I then shut it off, let the ice melt, tweek the thermostat up a degree or two, and that takes care of the problem.
I do NOT use a humidifier. The NewMexico climate is very dry, but there has been no problem that I can see w/ corks drying out prematurely.
It also helps if you have a $hitload (Kansas colloquialism for "a lot") of wine in your cellar. A large thermal mass goes a long way in damping out the temperature flucuations.
Tom

I don't know whether to make a separate thread, but I have a somewhat related question: I have a relatively cool indoor closet that I'm using for the bulk of my collection. It's a small closet interior (maybe 8x5x5) to my townhouse. It's relatively cool. But, there is really no access to exterior walls.

Is there any cheap, pracitcal way to add another lavel of cooling to such a closet? I suppose I could vent it through the ceiling into the crawlspace?

A friend of mine converted an old fruit cellar in his basement by adding insulation. It's fine most of the year, but when the weather does get hot, he simply hangs a milk jug, filled with water and frozen in the room. It keeps the room cool for a day, then replaces it with another from his freezer daily, until the hot weather breaks. Very low-tech, but it works.

We are about to convert half of my detached garage into a barrel room and our plan has been to cool it with a window air conditioner. This thread has been very encouraging!

Mike

Thanks very much to everyone for the responses, all of them quite helpful.

Based on Jenise's response in particular, I'm encouraged that with a precise thermometer, a little experimentation and a LOT of insulation, we'll be able to limit temperature fluctations to ~3 degrees F simply by using a timer on a room AC. This is appealing because it will also show us in advance whether the AC will ice up on a given timer cycle, which I don't think we'd know for sure on a thermostat.

Jenise's point on repair time was a big driver for us as well...if we lose cooling in the middle of the summer, I think we have about 12-24h before we start popping corks.

It also sounds like filling the empty spaces (as long as they exist) with jugs of water will help, so thanks for the pointer on thermal mass...I wouldn't have thought of that one myself.

Questions:
1) Will getting a larger-capacity AC unit help prevent ice-ups, or is that not related to the physics of the problem?

2) Can anyone provide instructions on dropping the thermostat low limit for any particular model of AC? I'd certainly be inclined to pick one model over another if I knew how to make the necessary modifications.

3) I'm wondering if I'd get smaller fluctuations by using a box-within-a-box design: a moderately-insulated interior room for the wine surrounded by a larger heavily-insulated room with the AC cooling a 1-2' air pocket between them. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
William.

It also sounds like filling the empty spaces (as long as they exist) with jugs of water will help, so thanks for the pointer on thermal mass..

Jugs of WATER?? Now there's a whacko idea!!! You fill the empty spaces with...wine!!

Q1. The larger capacity AC, the less time it has to be on to drop the temp. Thus, the less time it has to ice up. The icing issue is most a problem when there is stuff in frone of the cool air outlet, so give the AC as much room to blow into as possible.
Q2. No expertise here.
Q3. Sounds overly complicated, over-engineered and not worth the effort to me.
Tom

[Jenise]

William, re the box-within-a-box idea, you can achieve that with a product already available, rigid foam insulation. It comes in a variety of thicknesses and R-values, and it's hydrophobic . It's not cheap but it's probably no more extra cost than a second wall. You install it like wall paneling on furring strips and then dry wall right over it, though I don't think a sheath is neccessary except for aesthetics. It's a fantastic product--we used it in California.

Re the thermostat, you actually have to remove it from the A/C unit and tamper with the adjustment/reset screw that's behind the temperature setting device. Easily done, but it's why we always choose a very manual type of AC unit. When I went shopping for the one we have now, my husband's only mandate was for dials lest I come home with some programmed digital thing--not that we know that exists, but just in case. Re icing, you can discourage that by running shorter cycles, and more of them.