Gamey?

What does this descriptor mean? Does it mean oiley or meaty? I am trying to figure out if it means a "meaty" flavor or a "wild game" flavor. Is it positive or negative? With my recent tasting of the Sangiovese variety, I am noticing a very meating flavor in the wine, but I am not sure if I should be calling it "game/gamey" or just "meat/meaty". TIA as always!!

Hi Maria,
Gamey or game IMHO is used as a descriptive term of some very old wines that resemble the flesh of game birds or animals, definitely an acquired taste... Meaty on the other hand refers to texture and body (a wine that is rich and full-bodied).

Salute

BTW, it is a positive descriptor. You'll often see it used with Rhone and Red Burgundy wines.

Victor almost has it right but I would add not only old wines because I get gamey in some young savoury pinot noirs. Relates to wild game - the blood of a freshly killed deer for example or the gamey taste of mutton or game bird. Gamey wines can also be meaty.
I like Victor's definition of meaty.
Cheers,
Sue

Thanks guys. Ok, if meaty is used to describe the body of wine, then what descriptor is used if a wine has the flavor of meat (not game, like a steak flavor)?

Good answers so far, Maria.

I find that wines can be "meaty" in different ways, e.g. the smell of raw game is often found in hybrid reds, most especially in Marechal Foch; I get a "beefy" thing in many Rhônes, and often in Blaufränkisch as well. I see this characteristic most often in Rhône and Austrian/Hungarian reds; Foch is very much on the "raw meat" end of the spectrum. Baco Noir, on the other hand, sometimes has a very bacony meatiness to it that's not gamey but actually has nuances of crispy bacon.

Then there's an even funkier kind of gameyness that you typically find in Missourian Cynthiana, and some hybrid reds: funky marsh-like aromas that sometimes veer into the dark-roast coffee realm (charry). I tend to lump this kind of funk into the gamey bag because all these qualities have one thing in common: a primal wildness.

Maria,

I know exactly what you are talking about. Sangiovese, to me, has a tendency towards a "meaty" flavor. I've found it again and again. I liken it to...kind of a rare roast beef nuance about mid-palate towards the finish. In some wines, you can sense it on the nose.

Richard

Thanks guys. Ok, if meaty is used to describe the body of wine, then what descriptor is used if a wine has the flavor of meat (not game, like a steak flavor)?

Maria, you could simply qualify it by saying 'meaty texture' or 'meaty flavour'. Or drill down. Say, 'like the flavour of grilled steak'.

Smoky bacon is a favourite of mine. I understand it comes from a particular type of oak - and I get it in aroma and flavor in some wines that have used this oak - usually pinot noir.

Cheers,
Sue

I have perceived smoky bacon very rarely in red Burgundies or in Rhone wines. I also have perceived a meaty sensation such as oxtail in a red Burgundy. Both were pleasant and added nicely to the complexity of the wine in question.

I've seen bacon in several Cote Rotie wines...

Thanks guys. Ok, if meaty is used to describe the body of wine, then what descriptor is used if a wine has the flavor of meat (not game, like a steak flavor)?

Hi Maria,

I never heard back whether you got a chance to experience barnyard?

Of course, aromas and flavors of wine are really not exactly like anything other than what they are. But in broad terms, descriptors like gamy can be helpful to distinguish the general direction of an experience, as opposed to, say, fruity. I like to experience associations with wine that are not direct attempts to copy other tastes or smells, like what they make you think about; maybe a distant memory of a person or place.

But I think people use the term 'gamy' for meat flavor, or bloody, maybe. Especially meat that is not cooked, so that you can smell the blood along with the fresh meat.

Covert

FWIW, I think "bacon" is the classic descriptor for Cote Rotie.

Tom T.

Maria,

I must say, I really like the openness in your questions. It sounds like you are fairly new to wine. Welcome to one of life's great pleasures!

As a winegrower/winemaker, I can add something to this discussion. The "gamey" or "bacon" flavors come most often from fairly cool districts where the mature grapes still retain a fair amount of malic acid. I know we are not used to thinking of Chateauneuf du Pape as a cool district or Hermitage for that matter. But the average heat accumulation for the Southern Rhone during the growing season is about 2700 degrees. Contrast that with 3600 for the Russian River Valley of California! Malic acid is a heat sensitive acid, and in a hot climate will drop out of the fruit rapidly. That is why you get sweet jammy flavors in many CA reds and less of the game.

When I ferment my Pinot Noir and my Bordeaux blend each year here in SW Michigan, I get terrific fresh crunchy red fruit character with biting acidity. I must conduct a malo-lactic fermentation to bring the wine into balanced acidity. Once the ML has started, the crunchy fruit changes to mushroom, game, and yes some iron-like aromas that remind me of blood. These flavors dominate the wine during ML, and then receed into the background allowing the fruit to reemerge as the wine ages in barrel. The savor of the Allier French oak adds caramel and brown spice to the mix, producing wines that really resemble classical Burgundy and Bordeaux. So if you like the meat-like flavors in your wine, seek out wines from cool districts like France and Italy. Again, "cool" is a relative term as it can get quite hot in a French or Italian summer, but it is in the fall at the end of ripening when the cool nights in these regions really comes to the aid of malic acid retention in the ripening fruit.

The length of the growing season is related to the latitude of the vineyard. In the north, there are longer daylight hours in mid-summer than closer to the equator. But the season is shorter and cooler at the end. In my opinion, better, more complex and balanced wines are made in the North ( or South like NZ or Southern Chile) The grapes achieve full flavors and ripeness in the warmer sites while retaining their natural malic acid content, which adds complexity and liveliness to the wines.

James G. Lester

Thanks, Mr. Lester for your informative notes. I knew certain generalities about cool climate wines but this fleshes out the knowledge of just what is occurring with the acidity of the grapes. In a recent tasting of four American Pinot Noirs, I felt the two from cooler climates (Mendocino and Willamette Valley) had more elegance than the other two. I also like what occurs with Riesling wines in cooler climates.

Thank you again everyone for all your replies.

Paul - Interesting about the bacon flavors. I haven't experienced that yet. So, if you come across a wine that has a bacon flavor, in your TNs do you say it's "gamey" or do you say it tastes like bacon?

I know exactly what you are talking about. Sangiovese, to me, has a tendency towards a "meaty" flavor. I've found it again and again. I liken it to...kind of a rare roast beef nuance about mid-palate towards the finish. In some wines, you can sense it on the nose.

Exactly Richard...definitely a rare roast beef flavor for me as well and right at that mid-palate. Glad I am not the only one! LOL!

Thank you Sue...that was the answer I was looking for..."meaty flavor". And I like that I can be more specific as well.

I never heard back whether you got a chance to experience barnyard?

I *think* a sensed barnyard in my first Italian wine (See the post "My First Italian...Thanks Paulo!!"). It was a 1998 Avignonesi Vino Nobile di Montepulciano.

I like to experience associations with wine that are not direct attempts to copy other tastes or smells, like what they make you think about; maybe a distant memory of a person or place.

ITA...I think that is great...I tend not to share that bit when I give my TN's, but when I make my personal TNs I usually write that down.

I must say, I really like the openness in your questions. It sounds like you are fairly new to wine. Welcome to one of life's great pleasures!

I am definitely new to wine James! And thank you so much for that explanation. That kind of information really helps me understand wine. I really appreciate it!

Thanks James for that informative note. I thought that the “roasted” or “grilled” “meaty” aroma was linked to the sulfur containing compounds 2-mercaptoethyl acetate and 3- mecaptoppropyl acetate (thus related somehow with acetic acid). Most likely I might have miss-spelled the names of the compounds.

Salute

Maria,

There's nothing much I can add to the great replies above except to recommend you'll find gaminess more often than not in Pinot Noir, especially with some age on it. I love this trait in my French Burgundies - problem being, if you get bitten by the Red Burgundy bug, put all your overseas holidays and expensive new car purchases on the back burner!

BTW, the "smoky bacon" descriptor mentioned above can often be found in Chardonnay, particularly those that have undergone extensive "barrel work" by the winemaker.

Paul - Interesting about the bacon flavors. I haven't experienced that yet. So, if you come across a wine that has a bacon flavor, in your TNs do you say it's "gamey" or do you say it tastes like bacon?

Maria, I'll never describe bacon as gamey - they're two very distinct aromas to me. I'll just call it a "bacony" aroma.

Paul - Interesting about the bacon flavors. I haven't experienced that yet. So, if you come across a wine that has a bacon flavor, in your TNs do you say it's "gamey" or do you say it tastes like bacon?

Maria, I'll never describe bacon as gamey - they're two very distinct aromas to me. I'll just call it a "bacony" aroma.

Alright! Enough already! This thread is making me hungry!

Victorwine,

There may be an association with the compounds you mention. I have not heard that threory before. As all healthy wines have some acetic acid in them in small amounts you may be correct. Also malo-lactic fermentation causes a small increase in acetic acid formation. My empirical experience in the cellar is what I was drawiing upon in my comments on those wonderful complex aromas and flavors that get called "earthy", "fresh red meat", "mushroomy", and "barnyardy". The "roasted" or "cooked" or "smoke" meat flavors are a combination of the secondary flavors I named above and the toasting of the barrel staves.

Someone mentioned French Burgundy as having the "gamey" flavor. That is one of the best examples of a cool regions grapes having high malic acid content at harvest which gives those wonderful complex aromas once it has transformed to lactic acid and has combined with the wine's lees and the flavors from the barrel.

In Chardonnay, one can get some smoked flavors in a fine Meursault. My 03--a cool year--has that and it is almost certainly a combination of the toasted barrels and the ML character. You can read some notes on our 03 by Master Sommelier Ron Edwards who tasted it out of barrel at the website below. Scroll down to the last few "reviews" on Ron's page for his notes on the 03 and other wines of ours.

http://www.fivestarsommelier.com/bev_reviews.htm

Sincerely,
James G. Lester

Thanks James for replying. Being an amateur winemaker, I find this topic (–why a wine taste and smell the way it does), extremely fascinating. I’m taking Tom Stevenson’s “Wine Aromas and Flavors” one step further. Besides listing the possible chemical compound or compounds responsible for a given aroma or flavor, I’m seeking out its possible pathways and formations in wine.

Salute

Great Victorwine! You sound very serious! There is no end seemingly to what one can learn about all the complexity that is in wine.

Just remember that no matter how much one knows and what outstanding equipment one may own, a winemaker can never be better than his grapes!

Jim Lester