The place for all things wine, focused on serious wine discussions.

Yquem for beginners – cellars of rich people in the 18th century

Moderators: Jenise, Robin Garr, David M. Bueker

no avatar
User

François Audouze

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

187

Joined

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:05 pm

Location

Noisy-leSec France

Yquem for beginners – cellars of rich people in the 18th century

by François Audouze » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:13 pm

Yquem for beginners – cellars of rich people in the 18th century

There was a conference held in Bordeaux University whose subject was “usage of glass for wine from the 17th century to the 21st century”.

Some 40 speakers talked for three days in two groups and made very interesting contributions. I was one of them and I talked about the “restoration of the patrimony of very old wines with the help of gastronomy”. The speakers and attendants were mainly people from University and it was interesting to see how the knowledge of some speakers was intellectual, with few base on reality. But I have learnt a lot and I would like to pick some brief comments on what I have learnt.

The bottle for wine for storage appeared only in 1690. Previously the bottles were only used to pour the wine taken from barrels in the cellars.

The cellars were mainly constituted of barrels and bottles in cellars appeared really at the middle of the first half of the 19th century. And even then, the inventories of cellars which were made mentioned : 60 bottles of wine from Beaune, or 80 bottles of Meursault, or 40 bottles of Lafite. No indication of years and no indication of domain for the Burgundies. Two studies concerned thousands and thousands of inventories computed, and when I heard that the richest cellar in Bordeaux in 1820 had 4,000 bottles, I thought I would have been an emperor (private joke).

What is interesting is that people had an extremely significant number of sweet wines coming from many origins : Cyprus, South Africa, Syracuse, Madeira, Canaries Islands, Alicante, Portugal, Hungary. So, the common knowledge that the wine went where the natural transportation was cheaper (Bordeaux goes to London and Flemish regions, Burgundy goes to Paris, and Wallonia regions), could have hidden the fact that some precious wines travelled where people could afford them. In this respect, it is very significant for me that I have had the same process as my cellar has a very huge volume of sweet wines of every world region, contrarily to red and whites for which France is 95% of my wines. My collection of Cyprus wines from the first half of the 19th century is very similar to what happened then.

What is also interesting for me is that before 1850 no one cared about keeping wines for a long storage. This is due to the fact that people stored mainly barrels (small ones from various sizes). So, I can imagine that the one who had barrels of Lafite, served the barrel in service, and did not vary the millesimes for varied dinners. And it tells me too that labels with years were completely unusual. So labels for wines before 1850 have surely been made afterwards. And for me it is very sound news, as I have some very old bottles with handwritten labels. It is certainly truer than labels printed one century later.

Another remark is if people have only constituted cellars with vintages to age after 1850, I am completely in time with them, I am not late, as my cellar covers all these years. That makes me happy. But of course I learned many things that I do not relate to my case.

One very amusing detail. I was very proud to have experienced how champagne and oysters work so well together. One speaker talked about the representation of glasses and bottles in paintings of the 17th century. And one painting made in 1720 shows rich people drinking champagne (put in ice) and eating oysters (stored on a bed of ice). This shows that wisdom was already extreme at that time.

Just an information for some huge wine geeks : on the painting they are 6 people at the table, and on the floor there are already 23 empty bottles of champagne. And for the serious eaters, there are hundreds and hundreds oysters all around. People knew how to behave at that time. We have invented nothing.

Many other contributions and speeches were passionating. As such an international event (speakers from Austria, Portugal, Poland, Germany,…) required sponsoring, we had the advantage that Yquem offered a dinner for the speakers in the castle, and that May Eliane de Lencquesaing offered a visit of her museum of glass and a party.

In Chateau d’Yquem, for some people working for the University, it was a dream to be there for the first time. At my table of ten, five people had never drunk Yquem. So, I became for once the teacher, to explain how it is possible to enjoy better Yquem for the first time. I made many suggestions, and people appreciated a lot better their discovery.

We had a champagne Veuve Clicquot rosé NV which was necessary after so many intellectual efforts, and at the tables organised in the great sitting room of the castle, we had Y 2000 which I found better than previous tries, as it has expanded and gained width. We had Yquem 2002 which pleased a lot as it is a bunch of flowers and tropical fruits. Of course it is new and it is not one of the icons of Yquem, but I liked it. I showed to my partners of table that it worked magnificently with the meat sauce (made of a soft red wine !). The Yquem 1996 is in a very uncomfortable phase, exactly as the 1986 was ten years ago. Closed, torrefied, it had not great charm.

I made an experiment with my lovely neighbour : we had ordered a vervain. And with it, the 2002 was oriented towards tastes of tea and gained a wonderful length. On the contrary, the 1996 reacted as crunched paper.

Despite the sponsoring of LVMH we had “only” a XO Hennessy not very convincing.

We went by May Eliane de Lencquesaing about whom I will make a pleasant comment. She attended every conference, even if she was not obliged to, and we sat together. At a pause, she told me : “you must have been surprised by the sale of Pichon”. I said yes. “Why did not you call me?” I said “I did not want to bother you”. She said that I should have done, and very freely and openly she explained many details including some very personal. When we visited her museum, and the other rooms where glass is shown, one attendee told me : “your name is there”. I looked, and I saw a bottle that I had offered to May Eliane for her 80th birthday. It was a Maury 1925 from her birth year, and the empty bottle was there, signed by all her grandchildren, so drunk in family, and there was a mention of my name. I found that particularly friendly and emotional.

May Eliane, whose dynamism seems super natural, talked about her collection of glasses. She offered us Bernadotte 1999 that I did not drink as there was Pichon Comtesse 1993 in magnum that I found absolutely charming as this weak year has sufficiently expanded to deliver a charming message.

I have spent three nice days, talked with very expert people whose subjects of research were interesting. The possibility to visit once again Yquem and Pichon did the rest. I was happy.
Old wines are younger than what is generally considered
no avatar
User

SFJoe

Rank

Wine geek

Posts

97

Joined

Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:54 pm

Re: Yquem for beginners – cellars of rich people in the 18th century

by SFJoe » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:03 pm

François Audouze wrote:
bottles in cellars appeared really at the middle of the first half of the 19th century. And even then, the inventories of cellars which were made mentioned : 60 bottles of wine from Beaune, or 80 bottles of Meursault, or 40 bottles of Lafite. No indication of years and no indication of domain for the Burgundies. Two studies concerned thousands and thousands of inventories computed, and when I heard that the richest cellar in Bordeaux in 1820 had 4,000 bottles, I thought I would have been an emperor (private joke).

Sounds like a fun conference, François, thank you for giving the account.

I wonder a bit about the transition from the barrel in the cellar to the bottle in the cellar. Might this have varied some with distance from the region of production? I have an impression that wines coming to North America in the late 1700s and early 1800s might have often come in bottle--madeira in bottle in quantity, for instance. But I am no great expert.

Also, we have the cases of wealthy Americans in Europe sending wine home, Thomas Jefferson for example. Whether the Rodenstock bottles were real or not (and I have my own notion of this), the records do indicate that Jefferson was purchasing wine, and I thought in bottle, to send back to Virginia.

Any thoughts?
no avatar
User

François Audouze

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

187

Joined

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:05 pm

Location

Noisy-leSec France

Re: Yquem for beginners – cellars of rich people in the 18th century

by François Audouze » Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:55 am

The presence of bottles for shipment began very early.
And it is true that Jefferson ordered bottles.
So many bottles from the Jefferson cellar are true.
The same for sweet wines coming from many regions. The South African wines, the Tokaji came by bottles. No doubt on that.
But the average proportion of bottles in cellars before 1850 was extremely low.
Old wines are younger than what is generally considered
no avatar
User

David Creighton

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1217

Joined

Wed May 24, 2006 10:07 am

Location

ann arbor, michigan

Re: Yquem for beginners – cellars of rich people in the 18th century

by David Creighton » Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:18 pm

very interesting and thank you. was there any discussion of closures? when was cork first used?

i remember that circa 1980 i was in at least two restaurants in italy where the sommelier did something odd. he brought a large bowl to the table along with the wine. when he had removed the cork, he jerked the bottle in the direction of the bowl - throwing a small amount of wine into it. i asked about this odd happening and he said it was to get any cork out of the top of the bottle. this didn't seem quite right since he hadn't even looked to see if there were any.

the next day in some old cellars i saw large round glass containers with wine in them. on top was a quarter inch of something nearly clear - but there was no cork. i asked and was told it was olive oil that protected the wine from oxidation.

i surmised that in the old days when wines were brought in bottle from the winery to a nearby restaurant to be served, they might have been similarly topped with olive oil and delivered standing in wood boxes. then, as they were to be served, the olive oil in the top would be disposed of in the manner i had seen. i still regard this as the best explanation of that practice; but i don't know if any restaurants in italy or elsewhere still practice it.
david creighton
no avatar
User

Dave Erickson

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

808

Joined

Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:31 pm

Location

Asheville, NC

Re: Yquem for beginners – cellars of rich people in the 18th century

by Dave Erickson » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:30 pm

creightond wrote:very interesting and thank you. was there any discussion of closures? when was cork first used?


The Ancient Romans used cork stoppers, but the technology was lost until early in the 17th Century, when English bottlers began using cork again. The French didn't pick up the practice until 1685. (This is an amalgam of entries in the Oxford Companion and Tom Stevenson's "World Encyclopedia of Champagne and Sparkling Wines.")

PS: Merci beaucoup, M. Audouze, for a wonderfully French report!
no avatar
User

François Audouze

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

187

Joined

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:05 pm

Location

Noisy-leSec France

Re: Yquem for beginners – cellars of rich people in the 18th century

by François Audouze » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:25 pm

All your remarks are very interesting.
We have discussed about the very strong input of England to improve technics in producing glasses and in improving the use of corks.
All happened in the 17th century.
But I am sure that in secret, countries like Portugal, Cyprus, Sicily, Hungary, were working on the same technics.
The views were international and people did not feel in competition : they took what the most clever had invented.
And hazard played its role too like for the "invention" of late harvest, ice wines, botrytis and so on.

The key evolution has been the use of cork with glasses which did not break when the cork was pressed inside the bottle.
Old wines are younger than what is generally considered
no avatar
User

Michael K

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

570

Joined

Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:13 pm

Location

Wellesley, MA, USA

Re: Yquem for beginners – cellars of rich people in the 18th century

by Michael K » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:51 am

François,

It was interesting to read about you (versus reading your always incredible postings) in the April Decanter magazine on the Anthony Barton dinner. Sounded like an interesting night as well.
no avatar
User

François Audouze

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

187

Joined

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:05 pm

Location

Noisy-leSec France

Re: Yquem for beginners – cellars of rich people in the 18th century

by François Audouze » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:05 pm

Do you know how I could get this "Decanter" ? Is there a copy on the web ?
Old wines are younger than what is generally considered
no avatar
User

Dave Erickson

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

808

Joined

Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:31 pm

Location

Asheville, NC

Re: Yquem for beginners – cellars of rich people in the 18th century

by Dave Erickson » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:50 pm

François Audouze wrote:The key evolution has been the use of cork with glasses which did not break when the cork was pressed inside the bottle.


Exactly so. Once again, according to the Oxford, the English got the jump on using corks because at the time they made the strongest glass bottles.
no avatar
User

Bob Parsons Alberta

Rank

aka Doris

Posts

10808

Joined

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:09 pm

Re: Yquem for beginners – cellars of rich people in the 18th century

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:33 pm

Francois, if you like I can cut it out and mail to you. No problem, just PM me your mailing address.

Bob/Alberta.
no avatar
User

Michael K

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

570

Joined

Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:13 pm

Location

Wellesley, MA, USA

Re: Yquem for beginners – cellars of rich people in the 18th century

by Michael K » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:44 pm

It is the April version of Decanter (some March issues are still on the board). Please let me know if you want me to mail it to you.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ByteSpider, ClaudeBot, Google AgentMatch and 0 guests

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign