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WTN: Spätburgunderstudy

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WTN: Spätburgunderstudy

by Rahsaan » Sun Feb 25, 2024 7:48 pm

The man Robert D organized a Spätburgunderstudy at Hainan Chicken House. And we drank and ate well.

Great event, way too many wines for me to even begin to take comprehensive notes. For the overall picture, Robert mentioned the dramatic movement over the past 5-10-15 years, and I agree, lots of energy in German Spätburgunder, with greater diversity in styles, cutting across generations and regions.

That said, one of my big takeaways from such a large tasting (easily 60+ wines) is that if we did something similar in Burgundy, there would have been more detailed variation in the wines. Much less specificity here and more similarities across the wines. Reinforcing my point that Burgundy is not the frame of reference for German Spätburgunder. But, that doesn't take anything away from these delicious and enjoyable wines. Lots of fun to be had!!

Some highlights included 2019 Lukas Dostert, such ripe rippling fruit and only 11.5% alcohol, ending with firm Mosel acidity. Very nice, and very few bottles. Speaking of the Mosel, 2017 Daniel Twardowski Ardoise was crisp lively and lovely but way overpriced. I was more impressed with the 2006 Molitor Brauneberger Klostergarten ***, elegant, composed, now I see what the Molitor fans mean. (Other vintages of Molitor floating around as well, but who can keep track...)

Everyone flocked to the Keller Bürgels, 2017, 2009 and 2007. I thought 2007 was the standout and surprisingly richer than the 2009, or at least more in the zone. 2017 was more delicate and perhaps better made. But not as harmonious. The 2018 Keller Reserve du Fils was also pretty impressive, and will apparently be a GG next year. Not at all 2018 blowsy, it had nice structure and depth. I think all of these wines are priced too aggressively on the open market, but such is life...

A trio of 2011 Hubers (Bienenberg, Schlossberg and Sommerhalde) were interesting for me, because they were all very harmonious and had digested their young oak. But did not show much terroir difference across them. Still, they were fun to drink.

Speaking of old fashioned, 2002 Kessler Assmannshauser Hollenberg did not convince, dark and unharmonious. Admittedly this wasn't the most clinical setting, but this is not what most of us look for these days.

Another old name - 2018 Stodden Herrenberg - was nice and far from 2018 blowsy, but perhaps not as seductive as one might like. Some complained that it was too tannic, but that seemed excessive, it was far from too tannic in an absolute sense, perhaps just in this crowd. I've often wondered about Stodden and this intrigued me, if not convinced me of the price.

On the other hand, 2008 Walter Centgrafenberg "J" did convince me, elegant and delicious, and then 2013 Fürst Centgrafenberg also no slouch, perhaps more and better texture. But the vineyard class apparent in both. Some things are classic for a reason.

Of course plenty of the new Baden classics/darlings, Enderle & Moll and Wasenhaus are always delicious (also Shelter Winery, a newcomer), across vintages and bottlings. Pure wine juice. I was especially happy to enjoy recent vintage E&M because I haven't had them in a while. Great to see them in form.

For the pre-current-darling Baden, 2015 Mobitz Kanzel was a lovely alternate expression. The nose was gorgeous and deep and floral, but the palate a bit ashy and less enjoyable. Still, lovely.

I'm a Rebholz fan, so was happy to taste 2007 Spätlese trocken, still plenty of fruit and poise, would love to have a bottle with dinner. The 2016 R was also quite delicious and better than my previous experiences.

I was very curious to taste the 2018 Christmann Gimmeldingen, given what I've heard about changes at the winery. It was certainly more elegant than I feared and intrigued me enough to further explore.

I was disappointed in the 3 available 2002 Holger Kochs, entry level wines, but a bit tart and natty, especially the 2022 Herrenstuck N. But, I remain a Koch partisan and am happy to be told of their virtues.

Many many many many many many other wines (including roses, sparkling wines, 2002 Spätburgunder eiswein etc etc) most of them delicious, so another takeaway is that this is a category with lots of great options that more people should appreciate...
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Re: WTN: Spätburgunderstudy

by David M. Bueker » Tue Feb 27, 2024 11:45 am

Interesting stuff.

There was a time when Kessler was out in front of the Spätburgunder train, but it does not surprise me that an older wine would be less than convincing in the current environment. So much has changed in climate and winemaking since that wine came out.

Fürst is so good. Wish it was easier to get the wines. Of course I can say the same thing about availability of most top-flight Spätburgunder.

Then there's my backlog of US and French Pinot Noir, which makes exploring Spätburgunder in depth somewhat prohibitive.
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Re: WTN: Spätburgunderstudy

by Rahsaan » Wed Feb 28, 2024 8:56 am

David M. Bueker wrote:There was a time when Kessler was out in front of the Spätburgunder train, but it does not surprise me that an older wine would be less than convincing in the current environment. So much has changed in climate and winemaking since that wine came out..


Indeed. 2002 is ages ago for German Spätburgunder, so many changes. Better clones, better vine age for those clones, and so many more styles. Of course one of the ascendant styles is the E&M/Wasenhaus Carbonic Wine Juice profile that I find delicious but limiting. However, from Falkenstein to Thörle and many others inbetween, there are lots of styles. May all those flowers bloom!

Fürst is so good. Wish it was easier to get the wines. Of course I can say the same thing about availability of most top-flight Spätburgunder.


I guess. Most US wine shops don't treat it as a standard section like red Burgundy or Piedmont. But, availability is definitely improving. I did some shopping for this event and was impressed with the retail options in the Nyc area. Lyle F is of course one of the main options, with very extensive selections and great pricing, although his business model is unique...
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Re: WTN: Spätburgunderstudy

by David M. Bueker » Wed Feb 28, 2024 9:28 am

I have purchased some Spätburgunder from Lyle - Walter, Ziereisen specifically.

I keep trying the carbonic-styled wines, but every time I do I regret having purchased them. It's not a style that appeals.
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Re: WTN: Spätburgunderstudy

by Rahsaan » Wed Feb 28, 2024 9:35 am

David M. Bueker wrote:I have purchased some Spätburgunder from Lyle - Walter, Ziereisen specifically.


Do you like Ziereisen? Some discussion over on Disorder, because I've never warmed to them. But, many wines for many people!

I keep trying the carbonic-styled wines, but every time I do I regret having purchased them. It's not a style that appeals.


Do you like carbonic Beaujolais? I find the well-made ones extremely delicious. Dating back to Domaine de Peyra, 20+ years ago! And, I actually find Foillard, Descombes, Lapierre etc to be the peers/equivalents of Wasenhaus and E&M, not Burgundy. Which is why I don't mind paying $30-50 for those wines, but I balk when they get closer to $100. (Although I suppose plenty of $100+ Burgundy in all sorts of styles these days...)
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Re: WTN: Spätburgunderstudy

by David M. Bueker » Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:34 am

Jury is still out on Ziereisen. I only bought one wine (4 bottles), and have only tried it once. It was OK, but didn't exactly make my socks roll up and down.

Thivin is my far and away favorite Beaujolais producer, so that should tell you where my tastes lie.
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Re: WTN: Spätburgunderstudy

by Dale Williams » Wed Feb 28, 2024 12:48 pm

What an interesting report! I enjoy trying Spatburgunder, but pricing has gotten challenging. I occasionally buy Enderle and Moll, and used to like (not love) Ziereisen when I was buying from Lyle. But others like Furst have gotten too pricey for me. I did just buy a Muller-Catoir that was pretty reasonable, will open soon.
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Re: WTN: Spätburgunderstudy

by David M. Bueker » Wed Feb 28, 2024 1:49 pm

Huh. I have never seen a Catoir Spätburgunder. Of course I am usually loading up on Catoir Muskateller and Scheurebe.
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Re: WTN: Spätburgunderstudy

by Dale Williams » Wed Feb 28, 2024 2:15 pm

Looks like not a lot of it, at least according to CT. The one I have (Herzog Erste Lage) shows 0-6 bottles through 4 vintages. The Haardt has more, but maybe a couple dozen vintages. And these are geeky enough wines that probably most buyers use CT.
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Re: WTN: Spätburgunderstudy

by Rahsaan » Wed Feb 28, 2024 4:29 pm

We had the 2020 Catoir Herzog on Sunday and maybe another bottle or two from MC. I never got around to trying any of them. I wish I had, but there was so much!!

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