WTN: 1995 Chateau Simard St. Emilion...and a Question.

Hi All,

I am supposed to starting my tasting of Italian wines, but unfortunately came down with a cold last week, so I can't start for a few weeks (sorry Paulo...my bottle of Vino Nobile Montepulciano is STILL in the cellar!!). Anyway, I thought I would post some notes I took last month while waiting to embark on my journey into Italian wines.

1995 Chateau Simard St. Emilion - Importer: Diageo Chateau & Estates (NYC) , 12% Alcohol, no listing of varietals. Edited to add price: $26.00

The colour was brownish-red (bricking?). There was also some sediment. The nose was of caramel apple, raspberry, and leather. On the palate, lots of caramel, toast, and it had a very mellow earthy quality. Not very fruity, but more floral. The finish was decent, very spicy and slightly acidic. This wine had a nice acidity but was a bit lean.

My question...Do you think this wine is Maderized/sherrified at all? It smelled very "hot" but wasn't hot tasting. I enjoyed this wine, but then again, I am a really big fan of sherry. It definitely reminded me of sherry...since there was so much caramel and toast. All of the other St. Emilions I have ever had were very fruit forward...this one not so. Then again, this was the oldest wine I have ever tasted. So what do you all think? Is it age or sherrified?

Since you make no mention of aromas associated with vinegar or phenolic, my guess--and it is only a guess--is that the wine at some point in its life may have been over-exposed to heat, in which case your diagnosis of maderization would be correct.

Maria,

Dale Williams could tell you all about this wine. He explained the genre to me regarding another, similar St-Emilion. The producers hold back numbers of bottles to release in the future, to command more money. The wine is quite inexpensively made, but for some reason - maybe in part because of a lot of oak - it ages well for its breeding. Dale can tell you for sure, but I am sure (and never mind being wrong) that it is not artifically spiked in any way. That would not be allowed by the French government under its St-Emilion label.

When folks talk about madierization, they usually mean too much exposure to oxygen, which makes a wine taste a little like a fortified wine. Your Simard might have gotten some air in it.

A colleague brought a 1995 Simard to my home, recently, possibly thinking that I would be impressed by the vintage. He asked me what I thought he paid for it. I said between $26 and $27. Got him: it was $26.95. I actually enjoyed the wine, as it was smooth and tasted older, but not over the hill; and it had a little asphalt in it, which I like. I have drunk Simard on several occasions and liked the 1988 best and the 1982 least.

Speaking of best, you might be the best looking person (to my eye) whose picture has appeared on this forum. I won't comment on the other end; I probably don't have to.

Covert

Thanks Covert for the info. Interesting. So did the 1995 Simard you tried have the same qualities that I listed...or do you think I just got a badly handled bottle? I really enjoyed the wine...but it did remind me of sherry. Like I said though, not sure if that is the age or if there was some maderization to it. It will be interesting to hear what Dale Williams has to say about it.

And I edited my post to include the price...which you were spot on! $26.00...for that price I thought it was very nice.

Speaking of best, you might be the best looking person (to my eye) whose picture has appeared on this forum. I won't comment on the other end; I probably don't have to.

Wow..Thanks Covert!! I am very flattered...although I am probably one of the ONLY people who has an pic in their avatar...but flattered nonetheless!

So did the 1995 Simard you tried have the same qualities that I listed...or do you think I just got a badly handled bottle? I really enjoyed the wine...but it did remind me of sherry. Like I said though, not sure if that is the age or if there was some madeirization to it. It will be interesting to hear what Dale Williams has to say about it.

I agreed with some of the nice things that you said about it, but I didn't get any of the sherry business. I would try another bottle if you can. Maybe from a different store, if that were possible. Maybe your bottle got too much heat.

I have a little 375 ml bottle of Simmard I probably overpaid for. 1990. It's probably dead. I should open it this weekend.

I have a little 375 ml bottle of Simmard I probably overpaid for. 1990. It's probably dead. I should open it this weekend.

Brian,

A couple of years ago I bought six bottles of 1990 Chateau de la Gaffeliere, not to be confused with La Gaffeliere, for less than $20 a bottle. The promotional shtick of this inexpensive wine is the same as Simard in the way that it is held for future release.

Like Simard, it is quite woody but ages gracefully, if narrowly, and tosses off a lot of cedar and asphalt, with a full, smooth, velvety mouthfeel. I finished my last one earlier this winter and it was fine, enjoyable. So, you might be in luck.

Good luck.

Covert

Thanks, Covert. By "woody" do you mean lots of oak? I assume so.

I'm cohosting a party with a Merlot theme, so I'll bring this little bottle along, too. The local BevMo is carrying the 1995 right now.

Off topic-there's a small winery in Napa that's offering a very, very nice Old World style 1995 Napa Merlot. Farella-Park Winery.

1995 Chateau Simard St. Emilion - Importer: Diageo Chateau & Estates (NYC) , 12% Alcohol, no listing of varietals. Edited to add price: $26.00

The colour was brownish-red (bricking?). There was also some sediment. The nose was of caramel apple, raspberry, and leather. On the palate, lots of caramel, toast, and it had a very mellow earthy quality. Not very fruity, but more floral. The finish was decent, very spicy and slightly acidic. This wine had a nice acidity but was a bit lean.

My question...Do you think this wine is Maderized/sherrified at all? It smelled very "hot" but wasn't hot tasting. I enjoyed this wine, but then again, I am a really big fan of sherry. It definitely reminded me of sherry...since there was so much caramel and toast. All of the other St. Emilions I have ever had were very fruit forward...this one not so. Then again, this was the oldest wine I have ever tasted. So what do you all think? Is it age or sherrified?

Maria,
How much exposure have you had to aged Bordeaux? Like Covert, I have received an education about Simard from Dale "the Guru" Williams, but the only Simard I have had was the '90, which was quite nice in a lighter, simpler style for the vintage. I haven't had the '95, but from your description I suspect that it wasn't maderized, as a heat-damaged red usually tastes of stewed fruit and/or tomatoes and the fruit is usually the first thing to go. The flavor is usually quite distinctive in my experience, and the fact that you got raspberry in the nose isn't very consistent with heat damage.

Mark Lipton

Hmmm, I have to say my life goals never included being thought of as a Simard guru, but I have had quite a few bottles of the 1982-1990 range. Simard is a real chateau (unlike the Domaine de la Gaffeliere,which is some form of negociant bottling that uses a variation on a famous name). But like the Domaine de la Gaffeliere, Simard is a late release St.-Émilion, generally appearing 10-12 years after a vintage. Seems to only appear in vintages reputed to be good or better, I've never seen a '84, '87, '91, '92 mentioned anywhere. I'd assume proprietor sells off wine in bulk in those vintages.

Is Simard any good? Hard to say, as there is very significant bottle variation. I assume they bottle from barrel, and some are better than others. I had at least 3 bottles each of the '89 and '90, with one very poor bottle of each and others ranging from eh to good. Worth the $20 and 25 tarriffs, not more to me. I haven't had the '95.

From your note it sounds like your '95 was a bit tired, but not cooked. Nice job describing your impressions.

Simard is fairly large production, and it wouldn't surprise me if distribution wasn't top-notch, making transport/storage issues account for some of the variation. I do wince sometimes when I see restaurants with Simard as their only "mature Bordeaux", usually marked up to $100.

Maria,
How much exposure have you had to aged Bordeaux?

That's the problem Mark...I really have no experience with Aged Bordeaux. The oldest one I had tasted was from 2001. Most have been from 2003 or 2004. All the St. Emilions had a very distinctive merlot fruity flavor. The Simard didn't remind me of that. So I am not sure if it was the age or something else. Like I said, I enjoyed the wine, but it was definitely different than the new bordeauxs that I am used to.

Dale - Thank you so much for your explanation. It's so wonderful to learn so much about a wine. Please let me know if you try the '95, as I would love to hear your thoughts on it.

So, do you consider the Simard an everyday wine? Do you have any particular St. Emilions that you really like?

I enjoyed the wine, but it was definitely different than the new bordeauxs that I am used to.

I knew Dale would have the information. My memory is not as good. Yes, Domaine de la G., not Chateau. And I really didn't think your wine was cooked, as others expressed, too, mostly because you liked it. Folks usually don't like a flawed wine.

Both these wines we have been discussing have a kind of faux age; they taste older than their years, in a simple way, as their producers do a pretty good job of creating the aged taste. 1995 is really pretty young for a quality St-Emilion. You would generally have to find a much older St-Emilion to provide a real aged taste, and it would cost a lot.

I know that you asked Dale, but I can tell you that there are tons of St-Emilions to purchase. Many of them are called Grand Cru, which doesn't mean as much for a St-Emilion as it would for wines from some other areas. So many of them are good, most of them, and taste preference varies so much, that it is hard to advise anybody to try one or another.

I've advised others before that the best way to experience aged wines is to make friends with Dale or other Bordeaux fans who hold tastings and get-togethers, and try an old one or two that somebody brings. I started buying Bordeaux in pretty good numbers from 1995 on, and most of them are not aged enough to show their best. Occasionally I buy an old '66 or '78 for upwards to $100, and sometimes more, to get that really aged taste. It will be nice when you figure out if you especially like the aged Bordeaux experience. If you are lucky and you do, it adds a real treat to life.

Both these wines we have been discussing have a kind of faux age; they taste older than their years, in a simple way, as their producers do a pretty good job of creating the aged taste. 1995 is really pretty young for a quality St-Emilion. You would generally have to find a much older St-Emilion to provide a real aged taste, and it would cost a lot.

Calling it "faux" age is a bit over-the-top, Covert. If I recall correctly (and Dale will no doubt correct me if I don't) Simard sees extensive barrel aging and is only bottled shortly before release. That same model is used for Gran Reserva Rioja and was historically used in the Rhone valley, too. The only real difference might be the size of the barrels used at Ch. Simard. My point, though, is that it's likely a highly traditional method that was widely used even in Bordeaux until fairly recent times, and in that sense doesn't deserve the "faux" label. If it seems odd to our tastes, it's likely because our tastes have changed with the advent of widespread bottling at the chateau/domaine, just as they did when the switch was made from pitch-sealed amphorae to wood barrels

Pass the Retsina and Vin Jaune!
Mark Lipton

Calling it "faux" age is a bit over-the-top, Covert. If I recall correctly (and Dale will no doubt correct me if I don't) Simard sees extensive barrel aging and is only bottled shortly before release. That same model is used for Gran Reserva Rioja and was historically used in the Rhone valley, too. The only real difference might be the size of the barrels used at Ch. Simard. My point, though, is that it's likely a highly traditional method that was widely used even in Bordeaux until fairly recent times, and in that sense doesn't deserve the "faux" label. If it seems odd to our tastes, it's likely because our tastes have changed with the advent of widespread bottling at the chateau/domaine, just as they did when the switch was made from pitch-sealed amphorae to wood barrels

That's interesting, Mark. It's fun to learn things. So it is long-term aging in wood that gives it that "old" aspect, which bottled wine would not have at that point. Now if I can just remember it for when the next person brings up Simard, I will have made headway.

I don't think so, Mark. I think Simard is aged in used barrels for a fairly standard period (less than 2 years), and then stored in bottle. Labels are printed at release. I could be wrong, though.

So, do you consider the Simard an everyday wine? Do you have any particular St. Emilions that you really like?

Maria, for me "everyday" implies probably $15 or under (it used to be $10-12, but wine inflation!). I'm generally disappointed in the rare St Emilions I find at that price point my Bordeaux cravings are best served by the "satellite" appellations. My value Bdx favorite area is probably Cotes de Castillon- Ste Colombe and Cap de Faugeres are 2 of my regular buys (Ch. d'Aiguilhe is very good, but pricier). Both are modern, but not over the top. Also wines from Canon-Fronsac, Fronsac, Lalande de Pomerol, Cotes de Bourg.

With the bottle variation, I'm just not a buyer of Simard- as the good bottles are worth the money, but no more, with significant % of so-so to bad it's averages out poorly for my tastes

[Jenise]

All the St. Emilions had a very distinctive merlot fruity flavor. The Simard didn't remind me of that.

But yours did have the sweet floral nose, which is what merlot gives to the wine after all the primary fruit flavors you're talking about have converted to secondary characteristics like the caramel you describe.

Good post; it's turned into a very educational thread.

Oh, and p.s.: have been wanting to mention how glad we are to have you around. You contribute a great deal, and you're a lot of fun.

I'm generally disappointed in the rare St Emilions I find at that price point

Me too...I wasn't sure if it was because I wasn't looking hard enough or if they really didn't exist. Even St. Emilions that were about $20.00 have been disappointing to me...I have found that a decent $10.00 New World Merlot is better than most $20.00 St. Emilions.

Thank you for all those recommendations...I will certainly pick some of those up!

Thank you all so much for all the information.

But yours did have the sweet floral nose, which is what merlot gives to the wine after all the primary fruit flavors you're talking about have converted to secondary characteristics like the caramel you describe.

I didn't know this Jenise...that's good news then, since I did enjoy the wine...I am happy that I didn't enjoy a "faulty" bottle of wine...LOL!

Oh, and p.s.: have been wanting to mention how glad we are to have you around. You contribute a great deal, and you're a lot of fun.

Awww...thanks Jenise! You are too kind! Right back attcha! I love all the knowledge on this board and how fun and friendly everyone is. Thanks

Just picking up on your question mark over 'bricking'. The term is used in wine circles, though I don't think it's use is awfully consistent. For me it represents the outer rim of the wine going from a purple-red colour, to something more akin to a brick-red. Personally I prefer to describe the actual colour at the rim, rather than use the term bricking, but perhaps that's because I like Nebbiolo, which tends more towards orange at the rim than brick-red. Personal preference as to what you use - just use what feels best to you.

I hope this helps

Ian

Thanks Ian...I don't think it's bricking then...as the colour was more of a Brownish-red. Not really a brick red or orange red. Thank you for that clarification.

[Jenise]

Thanks Ian...I don't think it's bricking then...as the colour was more of a Brownish-red. Not really a brick red or orange red. Thank you for that clarification.

You used it correctly, Maria. Bricking just refers to the change of youthful red/blue/purple hues to any of the orange/tomato/garnet/brick/brown spectrum that are the visible signs of age. Ian was just being particular about the fact that some wines don't show what would not, on a painter's palette, be thought of as a 'brick' shade.