WTN: Fie on natural wines

[Jenise]

I didn't even realize this was a so-called natural wine when I purchased it or I'd have probably run for the hills.

2020 Margins Chenin Blanc Skin Fermented Clarksburg
CT has this pegged as an orange wine. Yes it's a natural wine, but is it an orange wine when the underlying grapes are white, not red? I had not thought so.... BUT, no matter, it's awful. Pale and cloudy. Nose is initially floral that quickly devolves and the palate favors stewed celery. Mercaptan-ish, but no rotting cabbage. We took a few sips then dumped it.

CT has this pegged as an orange wine. Yes it's a natural wine, but is it an orange wine when the underlying grapes are white, not red? I had not thought so.... BUT, no matter, it's awful...

Not sure if there's some confusion here, but orange wines are normally from white grapes. They pick up a bit of color from the skin contact and enter the 'orange' zone in the process.

[Jenise]

I'm not sure, Rahsaan. I've had orange wines made from red grapes, and orange wines from pinot gris and gewurz which are both white but colorful in their ripeness. Yes it was skin-fermented, but does that make it orange?

I didn't even realize this was a so-called natural wine when I purchased it or I'd have probably run for the hills.

2020 Margins Chenin Blanc Skin Fermented Clarksburg
CT has this pegged as an orange wine. Yes it's a natural wine, but is it an orange wine when the underlying grapes are white, not red? I had not thought so.... BUT, no matter, it's awful. Pale and cloudy. Nose is initially floral that quickly devolves and the palate favors stewed celery. Mercaptan-ish, but no rotting cabbage. We took a few sips then dumped it.

Well, Jenise..... many people use the term "orange" wine for any white wine made w/ skin-contact, no matter the color
of the grape. No matter the color of the wine. The are plenty of skin-contact whites that have no color whatsoever.
That is why I prefer to use BobbyStuckey's term Vini Macerati for any wine, white or red, made w/ skin-contact.
Alas, it's a term that's not seemed to have gained much traction.
The wine you describe is not as it is because it's a VinoMacerati. It is because it's a "natural" wine. And there are plenty
of "natural" wines that are not deserving of your approbation. Ryme & Iuli are all "natural" wines that are very good.
Tom

I've had orange wines made from red grapes...

Interesting. I've never heard of that. Tom gave the reply about how there is not really any formal policing of these terms, so I suppose people can call the wines anything they want. But for what it's worth, I had always considered it a white wine grape thing, so definitely not strange on that front.

Yes, I've never heard of an orange wine made from red grapes (red grapes macerated on skin would be red wines, or rose if brief I guess).
Sorry wine was bad though.

[David M. Bueker]

Well, Jenise..... many people use the term "orange" wine for any white wine made w/ skin-contact, no matter the color
of the grape. No matter the color of the wine.

And they would be very wrong. Red wines mostly (forgetting the teinturiers) get their color from the skins. We don't call them orange wines unless trying to stir the pot. You wouldn't do that, would you Tom?

[Jenise]

Yes, I've never heard of an orange wine made from red grapes (red grapes macerated on skin would be red wines, or rose if brief I guess).
Sorry wine was bad though.

I've had one from Oregon that was a blend of Pinot Noir and Gewurz. Not sure of the winery but might have been Teutonic.

[David M. Bueker]

Yup. Teutonic, though they don’t refer to it as “orange.”

I'm a pretty adventurous guy, but unsure if I've ever heard of anything less appealing (no matter production style) than a PN/Gewurz blend. Bring on the Grenache/Muscat!

Yes, I've never heard of an orange wine made from red grapes (red grapes macerated on skin would be red wines, or rose if brief I guess).
Sorry wine was bad though.

I've had one from Oregon that was a blend of Pinot Noir and Gewurz. Not sure of the winery but might have been Teutonic.

I've certainly had a wine described by others as orange, which had a small quantity of red grapes. It was a sort-of ruddy orange.

It's also possible to blend a skin-fermented white with a red fermented off its skins to give a orange wine, but that is just perverse!

[Jenise]

Yup. Teutonic, though they don’t refer to it as “orange.”

The guy who brought it to a blind Dork tasting did, though; and I don't know any better.

[Jenise]

I'm a pretty adventurous guy, but unsure if I've ever heard of anything less appealing (no matter production style) than a PN/Gewurz blend. Bring on the Grenache/Muscat!

Best I recall, I didn't hate it. But such is my low regard for gewurz that adding anything to it is an improvement.

Mercaptan aromas would point to the presence of reductive sulfur. I thought natural winemaking avoided sulfur additives?

-Paul W.

[David M. Bueker]

It doesn't have to be added sulfur compounds, though the winery tech sheets says some was added (and makes no claim about "natural" - their site calls themselves "low intervention"):

Destemmed then fermented and aged on skins for 25 days with gentle punchdowns once daily. Pressed then aged in neutral oak for five months. Native fermentation, no fining, no filtration, no other modifications or additions except 30 ppm of sulfur dioxide the week before bottling.

The grapes were harvested at 18.5 brix, so perhaps some unripe elements are in there, and acting weirdly. Or it's potentially just in a very youthful/funky phase.

Thinking about this further, short-chain mercaptans are detectable by the human olfactory system in parts-per-billion quantities. This is why they're used to give an odor to natural gas, propane, butane, and other volatile fuels that form explosive mixtures with air. The mercaptan from leaking gas is detectable long before the gas concentration becomes dangerous. Mercaptans from the natural sulfur present in the grape must might reach detectable quantities under the wrong circumstances.

-Paul W.