CT article read today

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/01/cellart ... eExtension

Maybe most WLPers have read, but just in case I share. Long article, but IMHO interesting. Do others use CT? I have found the TNs, some info on drink by ranges helpful. Pricing, not so much.

[Jenise]

No, pricing isn't helpful but it's only meant to be relative--they're not selling wine, like Vivino. But it's not even price as in MSRP, it's cost, and that figure's just an average of what a lot of people input which is widely variable according to how people source, and record in inventory, their purchases. It's merely a ballpark number, and an imperfect one. Which even then is sometimes helpful when trying to discover more about a wine I'm unfamiliar with. $90 give or take $10-15? Fine, that's all I need to know.

The most interesting part of the article was learning how big Vivino has become. I had no idea. I have no respect for the site, either.

[David M. Bueker]

Pat,

I think you already know I am a major CT user. I joined in 2004 at a beta stage, and personally entered several hundred German wines into the database as I loaded my cellar to the tool.

Pricing shows up two ways on CT. There is as Jenise said, the average of what users enter. I rarely bother with that, as once I have bought it I don’t care. I know I am not alone in that, and pay zero attention to the number except in passing. There is also a “value” number which comes from auction averages. Obviously that’s only useful for wines traded at auction, but that population keeps growing. I pay a little more attention to that, as there are a few things in my cellar that I bought cheap but are now a 1st class plane ticket we’re I to sell them. It makes me think. Hmm…drink this Burgundy or fly to Singapore…hmm.

Long time CT user here. I mainly use it to keep track of what I have and what I have drank. The notes can be useful with critical thinking and same with prices (although constantly seeing how much more I pay for the same wine compared to most others is rather depressing). I can't imagine not using it almost every day!

The classic site is still by far the best for me - I don't think I'll be interested in many of the new things coming in with the expanded staff.

I am with John here...The classic site is still by far the best for me - I don't think I'll be interested in many of the new things coming in with the expanded staff.

[David M. Bueker]

The “new stuff” is not going to affect inventory and tasting notes. CT still needs better reporting/analytics, and hopefully they will improve in that area. They also need a better search interface, as basic spelling errors completely shit down searches. A touch of Google is needed.

I was a die hard “classic” user, but have ultimately moved to the new layout. 10 minutes and I was just as proficient as before.

[Jenise]

I joined a long time ago but didn't really start using the site until much, much later. So I had looked up wines on classic but didn't load inventory until Rev 2 was out so wasn't so used to the other that I found the new one unacceptable. I hate the colors, but I'm otherwise fine with it.

As far as CT data, I tend to use more for ranges/guidelines on pricing and drink by year. And that only for $20+ wines. For <$20 wine I consider the bottles a sunk cost and drink in whatever order suits us. Drink by and TNs are definitely more valuable to me. Drink By is helpful in setting my own ranges.

CT is most definitely a useful tool for me. I still believe that most CTers pay for their own wines, so their TNs are worth more to me than those of critics. Don't use auction information as I keep the wines, with some gifting.

WS and I have two very different ideas about value, but the mag has other useful info.

[David M. Bueker]

I still believe that most CTers pay for their own wines, so their TNs are worth more to me than those of critics.

That's an interesting take on two fronts:

First, that you chose the word "most" for CT users paying for their wines. Do you believe there are a meaningful number of people posting notes as "users" who are receiving wines gratis? I have been sent a bottle here or there, but don't review those items without noting how I acquired the bottle in the text of my note.

Regarding the critics, a lot of their usefulness is access prior to release. It's an advance warning system. If a critic I trust (e.g. David Schildknecht, Brad Baker, William Kelley) is high on a wine then I am likely to give it a look, especially if I see it at an attractive price.

I don't know, I guess there is pressure for some critics to give overly-positive reviews to maintain access, but in general I trust their palate accuracy more than the random CT notes. So many of the notes are from people who have no idea what they are tasting, so you need to be discriminating in how you use them.

That said, CT can be more useful for updated takes on how older wines are showing these days. Professional notes from release don't help much with that.

Good points Rahsaan. Happy New Year!

David, others:

I am hesitant to make a blanket statement that all CTers pay for their own wines. I will sometimes note a review that seems very promotional, and includes no pricing info. It is rare, but it happens.

If I receive a wine as a gift, I sometimes note it as such but could be more consistent with that in my TNs. If pricing info is available I may also include what I can find, even though some gift cost may vary. Wine club membership discounts could be a factor, as could specials on specific wines, flat rate shipping, etc.

I've encountered a mixed bag of TN quality on CT. There are some reviewers who have more credibility with me. Overall, CT is useful. But just one source of input.

As for drinking windows, I usually contact the winery to see if they have recommendations. Or, their website may list that info. It would be nice if more wineries put that on their websites; however, most have been happy to help in response to my request.

[Jenise]

That said, CT can be more useful for updated takes on how older wines are showing these days. Professional notes from release don't help much with that.

Precisely. Where long ago I started out describing wines in more detail, especially if they were young, my notes have become shorter and less formulaic. After all, I'm not a critic, and I'm not trying to sell wine. I'll leave the highly detailed descriptions to the K&Ls of this world. Me, I'm only trying to provide a baseline impression or progress report on a wine I might have owned for 3-20 years, as well as control my inventory. Which, I think, is what most do.

[David M. Bueker]

Control inventory?

Not sure what that means.

[Jenise]

Of course not, your inventory is totally out of control! What are you up to now, over 4000?

[David M. Bueker]

Of course not, your inventory is totally out of control! What are you up to now, over 4000?

Way over. Stoppage coming imminently.

I've been using CT since mid 2006 to record my wines so I know what I have. In 2006 I realised I didn't know what I had, there were a lot of 'forgotten' wines.

I looked at the new CT when it came out, and didn't see anything I wanted - I don't really care what others are doing and there's a lot of empty space on the new look. I continue to use the 'classic' CT where there's lots of info per page.

There's been discussions over the years on prices. I enter what I paid, so a wine bought in a restaurant is priced higher than it would be if bought in a shop.

Also, there have been discussions about whether tax should be included in the price. I am aware in the USA wines are priced without sales tax, but here the taxes are included in the shelf price and the taxes are high, but that's what I have to pay and that's what I enter in CT. So an average of prices taken from CT is of little use IMO. But it's a feature I don't use, along with critic scores and drink by dates. If I want to know how much I'd need to pay for a wine I use Wine-Searcher.com and Google to find stockists and their prices.

All I want to know from CT is what wines I have in stock, where they are, and what I have consumed and when. There are a couple of small tweaks I'd like, but Eric isn't going to update 'classic' so that's it.

I use CT for inventory but for the most part ignore the reviews - unless you know the people doing the reviewing it is almost impossible to weight the data they offer.

There are a bunch of idiots there that think anything over a couple of years old is on its last legs, some who will give great reviews to wines they think should get great reviews, even though what they are describing is clearly a corked wine, and many who just assign numerical scores that are useless even when offered by professional tasters (look how RPs assessments changed toward the end).

Very useful for finding my wines and sorting out what I have but useful for assessing wines only in the few cases where I know the tastes of a specific reviewer. I do not post my own notes there.

[David M. Bueker]

I make use of the favorite reviewers functionality, so people I know/trust who have reviewed a wine show up before anyone else. It makes it easy to focus on folks who have a palate I am familiar with.

I have used CT for about 15 years and like it. I keep my inventory and use it for drink by date mainly…. When I am looking to batch up a bunch of wine to ship to the beach house or something it is helpful to run a “drink by” list. I also like to check the drink by date against the holdings in the CT database. Sometimes you will see a wine hit its drink by ending window…. And you look and see 80% of users have consumed their bottles. Other time you will see 30-40% have….. I find that an interesting piece of information

I was also thinking that based on the number of users they have and the suggested pricing…. CT probably makes more than &10mm a year in profit (and potentially much more) and is worth hundreds of millions of dollars at this point

[David M. Bueker]

I was also thinking that based on the number of users they have and the suggested pricing…. CT probably makes more than &10mm a year in profit (and potentially much more) and is worth hundreds of millions of dollars at this point

Doubtful. With the payments being voluntary there is no doubt a huge slash of income. If it was bringing in $10M Eric would not have gone after investors.