Question about "burnt sugar" as a descriptor....

I am having a regular A Mano Primitivo 2003 tonight with dinner. $11.76 with tax here in Philadelphia, PA. Often with southern Italian reds I get a dark fruit/black pepper/dull burnt sugar on the palate. Sometimes I don't, and all I can taste is a wonderful rustic and spicy wine from Southern Italy. Do any of you use these words as a descriptor? If so, what kinds of wines come to mind? It is not necessarily pleasing to me, though I don't mind having it once in a while. Is this more common among wines that have spent time in steel tanks? Help me out here!

Paulo,

it sounds like a descriptor used for wines with 'high toast +"...most certainly (American) oak derived.

From Tom Stevenson ...

"CARAMEL
Caramel (F) Karamell (G) Caramello (I) Caramelo (S)
Can be dominant diacetyl (see BUTTER), but also the aroma of various by products of oak-ageing and/or lees-stirring. Certain volatile lactones (4-hexanolide) have a caramel taste. Maltol and cyclotene have a caramel-type burnt-sugar aroma and are two of the substances created during the toasting of oak barrels. Another by-product of barrel-toasting, dihydromaltol has a roasted-caramel aroma.
Diacetyl, ethyl 4-hydroxybutyrate, maltol, cyclotene, furaneol, 4-hexanolide, dihydromaltol"

Paulo,

it sounds like a descriptor used for wines with 'high toast +"...most certainly (American) oak derived.

From Tom Stevenson ...

"CARAMEL
Caramel (F) Karamell (G) Caramello (I) Caramelo (S)
Can be dominant diacetyl (see BUTTER), but also the aroma of various by products of oak-ageing and/or lees-stirring. Certain volatile lactones (4-hexanolide) have a caramel taste. Maltol and cyclotene have a caramel-type burnt-sugar aroma and are two of the substances created during the toasting of oak barrels. Another by-product of barrel-toasting, dihydromaltol has a roasted-caramel aroma.
Diacetyl, ethyl 4-hydroxybutyrate, maltol, cyclotene, furaneol, 4-hexanolide, dihydromaltol"

Yes, and it could also simply be over ripe grapes "burnt" from the sun, which is not hard to do in southern Italy...

Paulo,

What did you think of teh 2003 A Mano?

Still a fan of Primitivo but have sworn off of A Mano. It is not only erratic vintage to vintage but also prone to bottle variation.

Still a fan of Primitivo but have sworn off of A Mano. It is not only erratic vintage to vintage but also prone to bottle variation.

I would say my first contact with the wine was a 2001 vintage, which seemed to be enjoyable at the time. The 2002 was full of American oak, and a complete turn off. I am not fond of too much ripe fruit, especially dark ripe fruit when it stands out, and especially in conjunction with the burnt sugar/caramel that I got with this vintage. On occasion I will run into a more balanced Southern red that does not present these characters, and then the wine is enjoyable. This is all now making more sense to me, especially since 03 was a very hot summer. Thanks for all of your comments.

Nice to see you all coming around. A Mano never appealed to me as a good representation of Primitivo.

Paulo, see if you can find Leone di Castris Primitivo di Manduria. Light years above that other stuff--more pricey of course.

Nice to see you all coming around. A Mano never appealed to me as a good representation of Primitivo.

Paulo, see if you can find Leone di Castris Primitivo di Manduria. Light years above that other stuff--more pricey of course.

Funny you should mention that, Thomas - I did have that in Italy recently. I would classify that as a well balanced modern version of Primitivo. Here's a picture of it from one of our dinners in Perugia from last month:

Paulo...for me it is a descriptor of a wine that is a bit oxidized, especially a stickie....for those wines, I think it is a `good' descriptor....for a dry wine, it is not something I like to taste...

Nice to see you all coming around. A Mano never appealed to me as a good representation of Primitivo.

Paulo, see if you can find Leone di Castris Primitivo di Manduria. Light years above that other stuff--more pricey of course.

Funny you should mention that, Thomas - I did have that in Italy recently. I would classify that as a well balanced modern version of Primitivo. Here's a picture of it from one of our dinners in Perugia from last month:

Paulo,

That looks like a new label--hence, maybe a new style of wine too. The ones that I used to drink were raspberry-Zinfandel-like wines.

In any event, the better Primitivi are from Manduria. But travel farther south, to Sicily, and drink Cerasuolo di Vittoria...