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Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

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Peter May

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Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

by Peter May » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:07 am

This is academic to me as we don't see native or hybrid US wines here in UK (except sometime NY Kosher wine), but there's an interesting article in the Fall 2019 American Wine Society Journal that says foxy tastes vanish when the grapes are fully ripe.

The article, by Jim Rink, tells that this is the theory of Nathaniel Rose of Nathaniel Rose Wines, MI who made wines from late harvested hybrids when his expected delivery of vinifera didn't arrive

In short, it says,
1) foxiness is caused by methyl anthranilate
2) methyl anthranilate levels rise in hybrid grapes as they ripen
3) when grapes are fully - physiologically - ripe, methyl anthranilate levels disappear
4) methyl anthranilate is sprayed on crops by farmers as a bird deterrent, as birds hate its taste
5) vines want their grapes to be eaten so seeds are dispersed, (thus they change colour when ripe)
6) vines don't want unripe grapes to be eaten as unripe seeds won't germinate
7) thus evolution has given native wines methyl anthranilate as a bird deterrent until grapes are fully ripe
8 ) because hybrids quickly produce high sugar and low acidity before physiological ripeness they usually are harvested with methyl anthranilate - thus foxiness

Calling Paul Bulas !!
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Dan Smothergill

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Re: Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

by Dan Smothergill » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:33 pm

I read the article too. The claims about methyl anthranilate are striking, but no real evidence is presented in the article or anywhere else I could find for them. Would love to see the evidence if it exists.
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Steve Slatcher

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Re: Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

by Steve Slatcher » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:14 pm

Dan Smothergill wrote:I read the article too. The claims about methyl anthranilate are striking, but no real evidence is presented in the article or anywhere else I could find for them. Would love to see the evidence if it exists.

I think there is plenty of evidence methyl anthranilate is responsible for "foxiness", but this is the first I have heard about it disappearing as grapes ripen. It sounds like something that would have been commented on before, but that is not to say is is untrue.

It has also BTW been claimed that methyl anthranilate is found in the musk glands of foxes and dogs, but I can find no convincing evidence for that.
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Re: Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

by Dan Smothergill » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:28 pm

Steve- Could you point me to the evidence please?
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Re: Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

by Steve Slatcher » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:34 am

Dan Smothergill wrote:Steve- Could you point me to the evidence please?

I was afraid you might ask that. It seems to be such common knowledge that few people, even in scientific circles, seem to reference evidence. If you google "methyl anthranilate foxy concord" you will see what I mean - just ignore the dodgy blog posts ;)

But I found this paper, and it seems its references 11,12 and 13 might have been the source for everything asserted by Nathaniel Rose.
https://www.brenda-enzymes.org/enzyme.p ... =2.3.1.232
Sorry, but I do not have ready access to these papers. If you do, maybe you could report back with a summary?
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Re: Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

by Peter May » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:42 am

Dan Smothergill wrote:I read the article too. The claims about methyl anthranilate are striking, but no real evidence is presented in the article or anywhere else I could find for them. Would love to see the evidence if it exists.


I don't know how much interest there is in native US vines, is there enough to do scientific research?

Article says winemakers don't harvest late because of risk to crops, thus grapes are harvested before physiologically ripe.

Paul Bulas makes wine from native/hybrid grapes and it'd be good if he were able to do an experiment

Unfortunately Paul doesn't give a contact on his blog, I have emailed him via this board but I don't know if that is an up to date address
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Re: Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

by Dale Williams » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:06 pm

well apparently I've never had a ripe hybrid. Though some seemed overripe to my palate. :)
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Re: Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

by Paul B. » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:11 pm

Hi Peter:

I haven't read the referenced article, but I can add the following based on personal experience.

Hybrids should only have detectable methyl anthranilate (i.e. the "foxy" aromatic characteristics associated with Concord) if they're crossed with labrusca varieties (e.g. Valiant). Riparia hybrids crossed with vinifera (e.g. Vidal, Baco, Foch, Chambourcin, Seyval) do not have this characteristic.

When I think of "foxy", I think of Condord and Niagara as the unofficial standard bearers for this term. That said, I don't like the term "foxy" much at all in any case, since it's so incredibly imprecise and may come to mean different things to different people—in fact it's almost guaranteed that this is the case in colloquial speech. Essentially, "foxy" = cotton-candy/musky-strawberry/pineapple/jasmine aromas.

Foch and Baco can be brackish and weedy tasting, but not foxy, since there is no labrusca in them. Valiant, a cross of riparia and Fredonia (a labrusca) does, on the other hand, have a light overlay of musk in its fruit. But—Foch, Baco, Chambourcin, etc., do not have this musky/floral quality as they were not crossed with labruscas.

So at its heart, there's a language issue that causes much confusion.

What riparia-based hybrids can have are brackish/weedy aromas (try a ripe wild riparia grape off the vine sometime—then you'll know what that taste is like), and torrefied aromas as well (i.e. darkly roasted coffee beans or toasted buckwheat—Eastern Europeans know this as kasha). But (and I stress)—this is a wholly different aromatic palette than the foxy one.

By the way, methyl anthranilate isn't unique to Concord or other labruscas: Pinot Noir has it as well, in tiny quantities (source: https://scinapse.io/papers/2338220543).
http://hybridwines.blogspot.ca
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Re: Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

by Victorwine » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:04 pm

Nice Thread Peter and Thank you Paul! Some might find the following link interesting.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf ... 05.02552.x

Salute
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Re: Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

by Dan Smothergill » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:59 am

Steve-
But I found this paper, and it seems its references 11,12 and 13 might have been the source for everything asserted by Nathaniel Rose.
https://www.brenda-enzymes.org/enzyme.p ... =2.3.1.232


Those reference numbers didn't appear when I clicked on the article. I will look for the article in the library. It would be very interesting if there is support for what Rose says.
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Re: Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

by Dale Williams » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:07 am

OK, vocabulary issues indeed, if by foxy we are supposed to mean pineapple or strawberry!
And what I call foxy (a musky/animal smell you get with Concord grapes) can definitely be found in Marechal Foch.
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Re: Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

by Steve Slatcher » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:49 pm

Dan Smothergill wrote:Steve-
But I found this paper, and it seems its references 11,12 and 13 might have been the source for everything asserted by Nathaniel Rose.
https://www.brenda-enzymes.org/enzyme.p ... =2.3.1.232


Those reference numbers didn't appear when I clicked on the article. I will look for the article in the library. It would be very interesting if there is support for what Rose says.

So sorry, Dan. I had a number of webpages open and obviously copied the wrong link. Here is the article I had in mind
http://www.jmb.or.kr/journal/download.p ... &num=10015

The article is: Hye Lim Lee, Song-Yi Kim, Eun Ji Kim, Da Ye Han, Bong-Gyu Kim, and Joong-Hoon Ah, Synthesis of Methylated Anthranilate Derivatives Using Engineered Strains of Escherichia coli, J. Microbiol. Biotechnol. (2019), 29(6), 839–844

And the references I thought were particularly relevant are

11. Fuleki, T. 1972. Changes in the chemical composition of Concord grapes grown in Ontario during ripening in the 1970 season. Can. J. Plant Sci. 52: 863-868.

12. Avery ML, Decker DG, Humphrey JS, Aronov E, Linscombe SD, Way MO. 1995. Methyl anthranilate as a rice seed treatment to deter birds. J. Wildl. Manag. 59: 50-56.

13. Cummings JL, Avery ML, Pochop PA, Davis Jr. JE, Decker DG, Krupa HW, et al. 1995. Evaluation of a methyl anthranilate formulation for reducing bird damage to blueberries. Crop. Prot. 14: 257-259.
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Re: Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

by Steve Slatcher » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:05 pm

Victorwine wrote:Nice Thread Peter and Thank you Paul! Some might find the following link interesting.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf ... 05.02552.x

Salute

Interesting.

A quick read revealed this quote: In nature, methyl anthranilate plays both defensive and attractive roles enhancing plant fitness and survival. This volatile aroma compound gives post-veraison Concord grape berries a floral, sweet and warm smell that may attract certain animals to eat the fruits in order to disperse the seed

So while the paper acknowledges that methyl anthranilate acts as a bird deterrent, it may (or maybe not?) attract other animals that disperse the (presumably ripe) seeds.
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Re: Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

by Paul B. » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:15 pm

Dale Williams wrote:OK, vocabulary issues indeed, if by foxy we are supposed to mean pineapple or strawberry!
And what I call foxy (a musky/animal smell you get with Concord grapes) can definitely be found in Marechal Foch.

I never once encountered it in any Ontario Foch; can't speak to any others made around N. America, however.
http://hybridwines.blogspot.ca
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Re: Foxy Taste in Hybrids?

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:01 am

None of my Ontario Foch notes mention "foxy' either.

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