Rumblings on wine part 90125 - what defines a wine region?

[David M. Bueker]

Picking up from our earlier conversation regarding California wine, I think it’s interesting to explore what defines a wine growing region. In one of his replies, Walt Nissen focused on the ripe, alcoholic, and often somewhat sweet California wines designed for a mass-market demographic. This was a legitimate acknowledgement of wine as alcohol-delivery device, as opposed to wine’s role with the smaller enthusiast crowd, accompanying a meal, and even celebrating its place in history and culture. There’s certainly validity to the view that the mass-market stuff defines California, and by extension U.S. wine production. After all, California produces close to 90% of U.S. wine, and the majority of it is not the artisanal variety that captures the attention of enthusiasts. Look at supermarkets or corner liquor stores, and it’s (to adapt from an old Coad saying) shelf after shelf of cheap crap.

Move on to Europe, and the definition argument is shifted 180 degrees. France, Italy, Spain, Germany, etc. make tons of cheap, commercial wines that sell for bargain prices, and have no real character. It’s certainly easier to find enjoyable, cheap wine in Europe (carafes in cafés), but that doesn’t erase the oceans of dreck. Yet even with all that low-level stuff, most major European wine producing countries are defined by the best they have to offer, rather than the worst. Germany is the outlier, as the Liebfraumilch/Zeller Schwarze Katz misadventures of the 1970s set the country’s wine back about 200 years in terms of public perception.

So what defines a wine region? Is it the ocean of inexpensive, commercial, industrial swill, or is it the artisanal products, made by the vignerons with the grape-stained fingernails?

[Robin Garr]

Maybe it depends on how well the high-end sector has traditionally marketed itself? Just thinking quickly aloud, it seems to me that while the US and Germany are judged by their mass-market offerings, France manages to be defined by its upper-crust product. Same, maybe, for New Zealand/good stuff vs Australia/high octane? Or maybe it's just me that thinks that?

[David M. Bueker]

Well that’s what I am curious about...what do you think.

Oh, and why do you think that?

Maybe it depends on how well the high-end sector has traditionally marketed itself? Just thinking quickly aloud, it seems to me that while the US and Germany are judged by their mass-market offerings, France manages to be defined by its upper-crust product. Same, maybe, for New Zealand/good stuff vs Australia/high octane? Or maybe it's just me that thinks that?

Yes, but it probably depends more specifically on who is receiving the marketing. Which means there is no one *definition* of a region.

To use Germany as an example, Americans who came into wine at a certain period define it by off-dry MSR wines, those who came into wine at earlier/later periods might define it differently when other regions/styles were more prevalent.

When I first read your title I thought it was going in a different direction, asking about what level of granularity makes a 'region'. I.E. is France/Burgundy/Cote de Nuits/NSG a region. But not sure that discussion could ever reach a conclusion either!

[David M. Bueker]

Yes, but it probably depends more specifically on who is receiving the marketing. Which means there is no one *definition* of a region.

You mean people have different biases?

[Robin Garr]

Yes, but it probably depends more specifically on who is receiving the marketing. Which means there is no one *definition* of a region.

You mean people have different biases?

Yes.

I think Rahsaan nailed it. When I came into wine, not long after Noah's Flood, the hierarchy was pretty simple: French wine was fancy and expensive. Italian wine was Chianti, German wine was Liebfraumilch, California wine was imitation French wine, Finger Lakes wine was fruity, Kosher wine was sweet, and nobody else made wine.

[David M. Bueker]

So is the way to break the cycle to wait for us curmudgeons to die?

[Robin Garr]

So is the way to break the cycle to wait for us curmudgeons to die?

Or just to become irrelevant.

I suspect there are at least two different ways of viewing a region; or rather, two different populations. The 1% of people who join wine boards will normally have a much more nuanced, informed and regional level (even inter-regional level) awareness of wine regions. That is, unlike most other people, who will typically think at the national level except for several key, well known regions (Napa, Burgundy, Bordeaux), the 1% or so are more aware of regions and their different varieties, terriors, climate, etc. 'Normal' people have a more vague awareness of what regions are 'good' or famous. Everybody has heard of Bordeaux, but only wine fanatics are aware of the various regions within the broader region and that it's not just about red wine in that region. There might be a few more levels than two, but different groups, based on their knowledge base, will have very different meanings of regions, with the majority being more at the national or large, well known region level. The geeks can get down to the vineyard level! So i think it's all about the audience.

[David M. Bueker]

I agree it’s about the audience, but there are plenty of folks not on wine boards who know a lot about France and California. I am in a tasting group with six of them. Literally only two of the eight guys have ever spent any time on the boards, and the other one (besides me) has been a minimal participant.

What defines a region, In a word, Marketing.

[David M. Bueker]

There's many different kinds of marketing, from the 1855 Classification in Bordeaux (France), to commercials on prime-time sitcoms (Australian, Californian and Italian wines have been on during my limited recent viewing), to product placement in a James Bond Movie (France).

But maybe I should focus the question towards the community here on the WLDG - what defines a wine region for you? Is it still marketing? If so, what kind of marketing?

But maybe I should focus the question towards the community here on the WLDG - what defines a wine region for you? Is it still marketing? If so, what kind of marketing?

I think most folks here are going to be sophisticated enough to know that 'regions' are very crude generalizations that don't get at the quality of a wine.

When I think of regions, the first thing that comes to my mind is the the grapes grown and the general climate conditions. Maybe also a general stylistic bent, if that exists across the region. But, for questions about quality/specific features of the wine, am much more likely to drill down to producer, vineyard and vintage.

But maybe I should focus the question towards the community here on the WLDG - what defines a wine region for you? Is it still marketing? If so, what kind of marketing?

I think most folks here are going to be sophisticated enough to know that 'regions' are very crude generalizations that don't get at the quality of a wine.

When I think of regions, the first thing that comes to my mind is the the grapes grown and the general climate conditions. Maybe also a general stylistic bent, if that exists across the region. But, for questions about quality/specific features of the wine, am much more likely to drill down to producer, vineyard and vintage.

I agree. As a broad guide to stylistic bent, whole countries like France, Germany, Spain and Italy are far too diverse to qualify as regions. Bordeaux, Burgundy, Champagne, Langhe, MSR...... do qualify but not the Loire valley IMO which is too long and diverse and needs to be split down into three sub-regions minimum (Pays Nantais, Anjou/Touraine & le Centre, i.e. Sancerre etc.) nor the Rhône valley which needs the North/South split.

In France, there are a lot of complaints that the appellation rules combined with the individuality of artisan growers makes difficult the development of mass market brands to compete with the likes of Gallo and Yellow Tail. However, from my point of view that is a blessing .

[David M. Bueker]

Good points Tim.

You now have me going on another (related) tangent - how to properly "scope" a region. What sorts of differences (e.g. soils, climate, topography) should result in a different regional label. How significant must those differences be to trigger the change?

On a related note, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Good points Tim.

You now have me going on another (related) tangent - how to properly "scope" a region. What sorts of differences (e.g. soils, climate, topography) should result in a different regional label. How significant must those differences be to trigger the change?

On a related note, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Or, how long is a piece of string?

Regions are large and regional labels are usually at the lower end of the appellation hierarchy, so there is inevitably a lot of differences within areas producing wines labelled Bordeaux, Bourgogne, Côtes du Rhône, etc. However it should not go too far, e.g. where there is multiplicity of grape varieties. That may be why AFAIK there is no Loire valley appellation.

Some of the most precise terroir related appellations are in Burgundy and Germany. However, in the latter case the precision was somewhat blurred by the 1971 law and in the former it is notorious that, say, parts of Clos de Vougeot near the main road produce wines unworthy of the GC status. In Bordeaux, communal appellations like Pauillac and St.Émilion are quite large with inevitable variations within them. I've just been reading an interesting review in RVF of St.Émilion Grands Crus Classés, in which they claim distinct characters in the wines from 7 different zones. Unfortunately I lack the budget to draw my own conclusions .

Good points Tim.

You now have me going on another (related) tangent - how to properly "scope" a region.

The answer to this is easy: politics. None of the zones are 'natural', they get defined through power relations (sometimes easier/harder to see depending on how long they have been in place).

[David M. Bueker]

Marketing and politics...

Ah the romance of wine.

The theory that makes the most sense to me is the same one that supposedly explains why Chinese food is cheap and crappy and Japanese food is expensive and "gourmet". Japan was closed to the West so the only Japanese visitors were wealthy, high-class royals, merchants, samurai, etc. China had surplus population and a need for hard currency, so they sent laborers instead. The respective cuisines reflect the status of the people who eat them. In the San Francisco Bay Area, you can see how this happens. The Chinatowns where recent immigrants live have cheap, low-status food. But the suburbs, where the wealthy, second- and third-generation immigrants live, are loaded with pricey, high-status places, with significant regional differences.

Similarly, when Thomas Jefferson comes back with pricey Bordeaux, that becomes the benchmark for French wine.

"Marketing and politics...

Ah the romance of wine."

And there you have it, David!

Definition of a wine region and "identity" or how one preceives the wines from a specific wine growing
region is two different things. The definition of a wine growing region could simply be is the region
favorable for growing wine grapes, are wine grapes able to survive there on their own? As pointed out
By Tim in the "Old World", with the aid of many years of trial and error, experimentation, and the help
of human "decrees" and "rules and regulations" certain styles of wines became the "identity" of certain regions.
Take the terms "New World wines", "Old World wines" in today's day and age are these wines bound by geographical
boundries or "traditional ideology"? Do the terms just represent a particular style of wine? As far as "identity"
or how one precieves a wine growing region will depend upon the individual. As mentioned by David, what is one
accoustomed too drink, does one find "sippers" (stand alone wines) or "food friendly table wines" pleasurable or
enjoyable.
California wines being "American Wines", I don't think that way. Wines produced from California grown grapes
regardless of what state they are produced in is a "California style" of wine. Wines produced from a blend of New
York and California grown grapes is an "American style" of wine. Diversity within a wine region is a good thing.

Salute