So, interesting developments in the Box Wine experiment

[Jenise]

Two weeks ago I initially purchased a French red, a WA cab and an Italian Barbera. To those I added a box of the Prohibition Red earlier this week.

The French red, I'm convinced, is cooked. Pruney. It's going to get returned for a full refund.

The WA cab that was too tannic initially has softened and improved, but on and off, I get a little VA in the pour.

The barbera that was so delightful at first and even last Thursday night when we encouraged dinner guests to sample at our 'bar' was, last night, undrinkable: it halfway to vinegar, so I siphoned all the rest off to begin that process.

The Prohibition Red was initially quite grapey and sweeter than we like, but it's improved since opening and I can tell it will be a big hit, so thank you Dale for mentioning it, it will be in the tasting.

But here's what I'm disovering and disliking a lot: the whole advantage thing of having a wine container that can be open for three-four weeks ISN'T REALLY THERE. That bladder bag isn't keeping the wine as fresh as expected; these are changing and breaking down at a faster rate than advertised.

It's party wine, nothing more.

[Robin Garr]

But here's what I'm disovering and disliking a lot: the whole advantage thing of having a wine container that can be open for three-four weeks ISN'T REALLY THERE. That bladder bag isn't keeping the wine as fresh as expected; these are changing and breaking down at a faster rate than advertised.

It's party wine, nothing more.

I think that's the usual take on box wines: Don't follow the pull-by date.

One question, though: Did you refrigerate it or keep it out? I'm guessing room temp; refrigeration should hold back deterioration, just as it does when you just stick the cork back in a half-full bottle.

As I've not heard of Prohibition wine, don't think I recommended.

A quality BiB should hold well refrigerated. I've tasted the Brocard chards and From the Tank CdR from friends who kept for couple weeks with little if any advancement. But I've guessing there are cheaper styles as well.

Robin, don't think she's talking sell-by, but just after opening

[Jenise]

Dale, you're correct. Paid no attention to dates on boxes. And no, none were refrigerated.

[Robin Garr]

Robin, don't think she's talking sell-by, but just after opening

Sorry, that was casual wording. I should have said, "Don't expect the wine to hold in the box as long as the hype suggests."

I do think refrigeration matters, though. Stash it in the fridge, pour a glass when you want one and warm it before drinking ... even the microwave can be put to use in this situation, if you're careful. Left on the counter, it's not going to last long, regardless of what the manufacturer says.

[Jenise]

Dale, it was Ryan who mentioned the Big House Prohibition Red.

I've been looking, but no sign of the Brocard....

[Jenise]

Left on the counter, it's not going to last long, regardless of what the manufacturer says.

Why should I not expect it? I recognize that refrigeration would slow things down, but to my mind the principal of the bag shrinking to exclude air and therefore prevent oxidation should apply regardless of temperature. I opened the Barbera on Feb 27th and on Mar 8th it's half vinegar. Hardly a substantial improvement on bottle performance.

Dale, it was Ryan who mentioned the Big House Prohibition Red.

I've been looking, but no sign of the Brocard....

When in Sonoma, I used to buy the Brocard boxes. They were pretty good. Haven't seen any of those for, oh, ten years or so though.

I doubt they created enough turn and profit to sustain importing them.

Interesting how different France and Italy (don't know about Spain) are in terms of embracing box wines and tetrapacks and such. The Co-op in Tain l'Hermitage has huge stacks of boxes, some up to 18 Liters, on its capacious retail sales floor. Not just indiscriminate plonk, either. CdR, CdR Villages, Crose-H., and Saint-Peray. The locals were scarfing up the boxes and hauling them out in multiples.

(Of course, the Euro wine countries had already established a long tradition of pumping bring-your-own bottles to locals and bistros to serve as house wine. Not uncommon to see folks amble in and get 5 liters in a jug from what looked like a petrol dispenser. Did more than a few bottles of those myself whilst in Rhone and Provence. Not a big leap from that to boxes.)

I had long thought that as the US scene became more mature, the wine-producing areas would get more and more comfortable with producing boxed wines, or at least better-quality jug wines. Never really happened, though.

[Robin Garr]

Why should I not expect it? I recognize that refrigeration would slow things down, but to my mind the principal of the bag shrinking to exclude air and therefore prevent oxidation should apply regardless of temperature. I opened the Barbera on Feb 27th and on Mar 8th it's half vinegar. Hardly a substantial improvement on bottle performance.

I'm not a technical expert here, Jenise, but I'm thinking that even though the bag shrinks to keep air out, it's still lightweight plastic. And manufacturers do exaggerate. It's been conventional wisdom for a long time that box wines don't keep well enough to satisfy wine geeks for the full half-life claimed on the label, although (not to be snobbish), the core audience for box wine might be less discerning.

Also, although this may be changing at the high end in recent generations, cheap Italian reds do tend to be volatile, and this is likely to show up quickly after the fruit starts to fade. Just a thought ...

Plastic polymers are not impermeable to oxygen. Research has shown that when comparing packaged wine using different formats, BIB wines age “quicker” than most under “warmer” conditions. (Their advice is- “Box wine keep it cool”). For every 1 degree Celsius rise in temperature the permeability of plastics increase a certain percentage (some types of plastics more than others). Another thing to consider is the surface contact area between the wine and the plastic, a “shrinking” plastic bag just increases surface contact (so now you have aroma scalping to think about).

Salute

[Jenise]

although (not to be snobbish), the core audience for box wine might be less discerning.
..

It's fact, not snobbishness. It's also true about me that I'm not just discerning in the moment but like most geeks both blessed and cursed with way above average palate memory. Makes it hard to suffer through a wine's downhill journey.

[Jenise]

Plastic polymers are not impermeable to oxygen. Research has shown that when comparing packaged wine using different formats, BIB wines age “quicker” than most under “warmer” conditions. (Their advice is- “Box wine keep it cool”). For every 1 degree Celsius rise in temperature the permeability of plastics increase a certain percentage (some types of plastics more than others). Another thing to consider is the surface contact area between the wine and the plastic, a “shrinking” plastic bag just increases surface contact (so now you have aroma scalping to think about).

Salute

And that's the real bottom line. Thanks, Victor.

I have been following this thread with interest.

When I last bought wine in a box (over 10 years ago at least), I concluded that the wine needed to be consumed within very few days and that, given the quantity in the box, probably half would end up going down the sink. Having recently read some favourable reports about box wines, I was contemplating dipping my toes into the water again, hoping that the technology had improved. I'm glad I didn't

Hoke notes that box wine is popular in France and Italy. Part of it is probably consumed quickly at parties and barbecues but for the rest Robin's explanation here probably applies.

It's been conventional wisdom for a long time that box wines don't keep well enough to satisfy wine geeks for the full half-life claimed on the label, although (not to be snobbish), the core audience for box wine might be less discerning.

I am definitely in the market for a wine preservation device and was disappointed to read on another site that many people were not satisfied with the performance of Coravin, particularly with mature wines, which I what I would want it for . However it has saved me c.€300 on a device which would probably languish in a drawer after one or two unsuccessful experiments .

Wine bars seem satisfied with the performance of their professional devices which are rather like multiple Coravins or multiple VacuVins with automatic renewal of the vacuum. I suspect that the key to satisfaction here is quick turnover of the wines.

[Jenise]

There you are, Tim, exactly: quick turnover. The bags don't work as well as some of us thought they did/would, and geeks like you and I will never be sold on them. They'll be okay for a week, but not much more.

hoping that the technology had improved

Hi Tim,
The biggest problem when “Wine in a Box” was first introduced was mainly due to the quality of wine put into the box. Today however you could find “premium’ wine now in a box. (Winemakers are not necessarily taking ‘short cuts’ with the cellar operations, the fact alone that they are using BIB as their “final package’ they could keep cost (for consumers) down). Just like the researchers who are experimenting and making improvements with the liners of screw caps, researchers and developers of the bladders are experimenting and making improvements. The BIB technology for wine is still in it’s ‘orphan stage”.

You might find the following link and article from Wines & Vines written by Tim Patterson interesting.

https://www.winesandvines.com/sections/ ... t=73697%20

Salute

In my experience, many years ago, the use-by date printed on the box is important. If it is short-dated when you buy it and you open soon after buying, it will be shot within a few weeks. If it is longer-dated, it will last longer open.

Incidentally, back in those days the plastic bag used to have a metallic film to help keep out oxygen. I understand that was still not perfect as cracks in the film develop, and the tap also lets oygen in. But the ones I buy now - for cooking only - are just plastic. Anyone know if that is because there are less-permeable plastics available now, or are those non-metallic bags just poorer quality?

I think a big issue is what goes in to start.
The Jenny & Francois notes for the From the Tank series emphasis fridge storage, which is what friends did with FTT and Brocard to get a couple weeks out of it.

Jenise - suggest a test.

Open a new bag of wine, and immediately pour a bottle full into a 750 ad stick a cork (maybe plastic one?) in it. Monitor the condition of the wine in the box over then next 7-14 days and then open the bottle and see what the difference is.

And this is well worth reading.

http://www.academicwino.com/2014/02/bag ... tles.html/

The use-by date printed on the box is important

I don’t really think so. More important would be “A-Fill-on date” or “Born-on-Date”. Predicting “Use-by-Date”, “Drink-by-Date, or “Freshness-assurance-Date” is nearly impossible, once the box leaves the production facility all bets are off. There is a considerable difference on how a “worn” bladder performs and an “unworn” bladder performs. (By “worn” I mean a boxed wine that was shipped across the country or half way around the world, and “unworn” shipped locally from the production facility or just resting in storage at the production facility). Just as the developers of liners for screw-caps are improving their performance, developers of the bladders and taps will make improvements.

Salute

If a use-by date is not important, how could a filled-on date be any more help?

Typically such wine is shipped in bulk containers, and "boxed" in the country of sale, and the relationship between the filled-on and use-by date would be a fixed number of months.

Of course, if the wine has been mistreated before sale all bets are off anyway.

[Jenise]

FWIW, the Italian Barbera I bought has a Produced On date; the two domestic wines both have Use By dates.

I don't intend to bring the due by date OR use by date to the attention of the sous chef - she might take it as a mandatory command!

[Jenise]

Your radio Grenache is in the tasting, btw. Also picked up a white blend (SB, CB and French Columbard) called something like Sommet Ridge (Kelowna), a Hester Creek PG and a Spanish syrah-monastrell blend that a guy at Everything Wine said was the best box wine he's ever tasted. We got the last box, he said it's been flying out of the store. I'll let you know if it's actually that good! Prices are pretty high up there, literally 2x what we pay here for the same thing. If it weren't for the 25% discount I get on the currency conversion I couldn't really afford to shop there for box wine.

Yeah, do let me know - the sous chef has been looking pretty thirsty lately...