Vintage date vs. disgorgement date

[Jenise]

I bought some sparkling wine via Winebid that was supposed to be 2010 vintage. They've arrived, and it turns out they're not vintage-dated, that's just the year the wines were disgorged. I think I've been cheated. What say y'all?

Is there a numerical code on the capsule? I have e-mailed the Champagne producers before and most are willing to reveal what vintage or multiple vintages that wine was made from. The wholesaler/retailer is the problem here and they may disregard your further requests. Good luck there. Champagne is still in the back-waters of consumer information. Dosage is another good ???

[David M. Bueker]

If the offer was 2010 vintage then you have indeed been cheated.

[Jenise]

Jim, this is from a top Barolo producer not champagne, and was purchased via the internet. It was definitely listed as 2010 Armand Parusso blahblahblah. But no vintage is on the label, just disgorgement date something-2010 on the back.

Sorry Jenise, I misunderstood.

[Jenise]

Sorry Jenise, I misunderstood.

I got it, no problem.

[David M. Bueker]

Wasn't clear to me either, but my answer remains the same.

[Jenise]

Wasn't clear to me either, but my answer remains the same.

It should have been sold as an NV. I just wanted to make sure that no one else knows of any circumstance in which it's ethical/desirable/okay to show disgorgement date where otherwise a vintage date, or no date, would be.

[David M. Bueker]

Agree with your take.

Cheated perhaps, but it could have been a genuine error.

To state the obvious perhaps, it still does not necessarily mean you have a bad deal.

Do you know what vintage bottles look like? Do they have year on label? Because it looks like all the labels on web don't show a vintage, wondering if on a neck tag that might be missing. It looks like Parusso does make a vintage sparkler (a distributor shows a fact sheet with the 2011 disgorged in 2015), sparkling Nebbiolo is such a rarity I'd actually be kind of surprised if they made both a vintage and a NV. I 'm just wondering if you have a 2006 or so that's missing a neck tag. Maybe write importer- should be on bottle.

[Jenise]

Oh I'm so embarrassed.

Dale, your post made me go back and look at the website where I read about this wine (before bidding on it). And then I went back and looked at my bottles, they're identical to the one showed in back-label view in this article.

http://www.thewalkinggrape.com/parusso-is-up-to-it-again-and-delivers-again/

Confession: I didn't actually look at the label myself, I took my husband's word for it. He didn't know how to read it.

The fact sheet for the 2010 vintage on the Parusso site says (in the Italian version (translated by google)

....
In this story today we want to follow up presenting our Parusso Metodo Classico 2010 vintage.
Today, May 1, 2014 we present the Parusso Classic Product Method starting from Nebbiolo grapes, picked in mid September a

http://parusso.com/en_US/i-nostri-vini/ ... ico-2.html

So the producer says it come from the 2010 vintage, but he cannot put the vintage on the label (apart from in a coded a lot number) as the wine is not IGP, DOC or DOCG? Personally I still think a selling website should have been a bit clearer. I would say they should list it as NV, but with a note describing what the producer says. If a wine actually does have a vintage on the label, that has legal ramifications.

But it is not worth kicking a fuss about, and presumably you have the wine you want, Jenise, so that is the important thing.

Glad you got what you wanted!
I wonder if because it's an oddity it falls outside of appellation system and they aren't allowed to use vintage on label (except in small print lot code).
edited to add Steve beat me to it! But I personally don't have a problem with them stating vintage- back when similar situation with Lapierre's Raisins Gaulois (where they used Roman numerals to get around) I just referred to it as 2007 or whatever.

Hi Jenise,
What I find interesting about this Sparkling wine is how it is made. The Nebbiolo grapes are picked mid September allowed to rest for several days, 40 % of the “free-run” juice (“flower must”) is bled off and fermented as a “white wine” (becoming the “base wine” of the sparkling wine). The “triage” is produced from late harvest Nebbiolo grapes and / or grapes that under went appasimento (drying of the grapes). By late December the “base wine” is bottled and the “triage” is added. The bottles are than aged for 30 to 36 months.

Salute

The bottles are than aged for 30 to 36 months.

Yes, that bit is puzzling.
Since they are talking in detail about one particulr named vintage, why don't they state the bottle maturation time of that vintage more precisely than a 6 month window?

A Sparkling wine (Vintage or NV) could have several disgorgement dates thus the 6 month window.

Salute

Hi Steve,
We’re dealing with Spumanti wines here. Clearly Jenise wine is labeled a VSQ (Vino Spumanti di Qualita-Sparkling Wine of Quality). Surely if the wine is a VSQ PRD (Quality Sparkling Wine Produced in Determined Region) all DOC or DOCG rules and regulations for a sparkling wines must be adhered to.

Salute

Hi Steve,
We’re dealing with Spumanti wines here. Clearly Jenise wine is labeled a VSQ (Vino Spumanti di Qualita-Sparkling Wine of Quality). Surely if the wine is a VSQ PRD (Quality Sparkling Wine Produced in Determined Region) all DOC or DOCG rules and regulations for a sparkling wines must be adhered to.

Salute

Not really sure what you are saying here. Yes this was a VSQ (no determined area). And I admit I am not 100% sure what that means for whether vintages are allowed or not. It's a bit strange in that there is a category that is such a thing as a quality wine not restricted by region.

As far as I can figure out, VSQPRD is no longer used. It used to be added to labels of DOC(G) sparkling wines, but I guess they decided it was redundant because the DOC(G) tells you all you need to know.

The DOC and DOCG sometimes only allow a particular style of wine. The Barolo DOCG is only for a dry red table wine produced from 100% Nebbiolo. So producing a Spumanti wine from the same grapes a Barolo DOCG wine is made from cannot be labeled a Barolo DOCG wine. Where do you think the 60% of the must remaining (after bleeding off the “flower must”) goes? My guess would be his/her Barolo DOCG wine.

Salute

This is why I brought up calling mono variety produced and labeled wines (let’s just stick with the left bank) AOC Bordeaux wines. Traditionally red Bordeaux wines were produced from a blend of red grapes- “Bordeaux Blend”. (“Bordeaux Blend” has become a synonym for “Bordeaux Wine”). Over the years (and possible in the future) the list of so-called allowable red grapes changed (will change). So my argument is producing and bottling a single variety wine in Bordeaux (such as Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Cabernet Franc or Petit Verdot) does not produce an AOC Bordeaux wine (maybe a “Super-Bordeaux) but a red wine made in Bordeaux. I guess one could argue that the AOC does not stipulate percentages.

Salute

So my argument is producing and bottling a single variety wine in Bordeaux (such as Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Cabernet Franc or Petit Verdot) does not produce an AOC Bordeaux wine (maybe a “Super-Bordeaux) but a red wine made in Bordeaux. I guess one could argue that the AOC does not stipulate percentages

While I'm bewildered by what this has to do with Jenise's spumante, I also am perplexed by this statement. Lots of Bdx AC wines are all Merlot, as well as some Blayes, Fronsacs, etc . If you include more prestigious appellations, Petrus is.I would guess there well might some 100% CS or possibly CF as well, though wouldn't swear to it. You were mentioning reds, but same logic applies to Bdx whites- plenty of 100% SB wines, and a few 100% Semillon (I have never heard of a 100% Muscadelle).

For us outside of Italy to find a Spumanti wine made in the Barolo region of Piedmont is a rarity indeed. The people of the region have been enjoying these wines for years (many years). Thomas Jefferson when touring Piedmont, Italy made a reference to drinking a frizzanti or spumanti Nebbiolo (Jenise is in good company). As these “treasures” become worldlier known and they want to compete globally in the wine market (and because they don’t actually fit in the DOC or DOCG) IMHO you are going to see more and more VSQ and VSQPRD wines.
Tell you the truth it wouldn’t surprise me if Italy drops DOC and DOCG and returns to the old acronym VQPRD (Quality Wine Produced in a Determined Region).

Salute