Are Burgundies/Pinot Noirs meant for aging?

I was wondering if most Burgundies/Pinot Noir improve with age, or are they better when drank young?

Probably depends on the Pinot Noir.

Some Burgundy grands crus can show amazing longevity. I remember 1929 Corton which was full of vigorous fruit and complexity at a millenium dinner. A grand or 1er cru and some village wines from a good grower in a good year should repay at least 10 years ageing though, for example, the 2000s are delicious now and may not improve much more.

However as a purely quantitative observation, it is probably true that most Burgundy, e.g. the masses of Bourgogne rouge, and most New World pinot noir should be drunk young.

Maria, As a Pinot Noir grower, winemaker, and Burgundy lover, I concur with Tim York. Grand Cru Burgundies age very well. In fact they need to be aged as do most Premier Cru Burgundies. As a rough rule, Grand Cru's need at least 10 years to really show all their virtues but can last in a good cellar for decades. Premier Cru's need 5-8 years. Village wines from popular producers such as Jadot, Drouhin, and Latour are fairly widely available and usually drink well within 4-6 years from vintage. Some Oregon Pinots age well, but in general, the best are best within 10 years, and most drink well after 4 or 5 years. I am not familiar enough with CA Pinots to say for sure, but I will hazzard a guess that if they perform like CA Cabs as compared to Bordeaux, drink them within 5 years of vintage when they have their fruit. As a rule, cool climates produce longer-lived Pinots.

Jim Lester
Wyncroft, LLC

Maria, As a Pinot Noir grower, winemaker, and Burgundy lover, I concur with Tim York. Grand Cru Burgundies age very well. In fact they need to be aged as do most Premier Cru Burgundies. As a rough rule, Grand Cru's need at least 10 years to really show all their virtues but can last in a good cellar for decades. Premier Cru's need 5-8 years. Village wines from popular producers such as Jadot, Drouhin, and Latour are fairly widely available and usually drink well within 4-6 years from vintage. Some Oregon Pinots age well, but in general, the best are best within 10 years, and most drink well after 4 or 5 years. I am not familiar enough with CA Pinots to say for sure, but I will hazzard a guess that if they perform like CA Cabs as compared to Bordeaux, drink them within 5 years of vintage when they have their fruit. As a rule, cool climates produce longer-lived Pinots.

Jim Lester
Wyncroft, LLC

Thank you all for the info.!

Jim - That's fantastic that you are a winemaker! I had a 2004 Jadot Bourgogne recently and it was definitely sharp/acidic to me. It was my first ever burgundy, so I am not sure if it is supposed to taste that way or if I should have held it for a few years. What are your thoughts?

James, welcome to the forum! Where in Michigan do you grow your wines/grapes? I have visited the TVC area and was greatly impressed, but more so of the whites than the reds. I do think though that Michigan growers are really starting to understand red wine grapes. The reserve gamay noir from Ch Grand Traverse is awesome IMO. Also, are you aware of the gathering in Ann Arbor in Aug of every year known as Mo'Cool?

I had a 2004 Jadot Bourgogne recently and it was definitely sharp/acidic to me.

Maria,

I've been drinking quite a bit of the '04 Jadot Bourgogne Pinot Noir. I pull the cork and let it take air for about 45 minutes and the acidity burns away quite nicely. The same result can be had with about 15-20 minutes in the glass.

Most pinot noirs aren't vinified for the long haul. Red Burgundy is the exception. Due to the climate (this is about as far north as pinot noir can be grown effectively to produce red still wine), Burgundy usually has high acidity, which helps it to age well, and not just to keep, but actually to improve.

I've had some very pleasant surprises keeping plain Bourgogne Rouge from good producers for 10 years. Premiers Crus from good vintages usually will keep at least that long. I'm currently enjoying some 10-14 year old Burgundies from my cellar, and they've so far repaid my patience in keeping them that long.

California and other new world pinots are a different matter. They're drinkable a lot younger. But again, there can be some pleasant surprises, such as some 1995 Carneros Creek that had got lost in my cellar and that I only found last week. It's kept very well, thank you very much.

But in general I'd drink the new world pinots 5-10 years past the vintage date.

-Paul W.

Paul,

You wrote -

"Due to the climate (this is about as far north as pinot noir can be grown effectively to produce red still wine), Burgundy......"

In the recent series of warmer summers than historical average, an increasing amount of good reds from pinot noir is being grown far North of Burgundy.

For example the reds from the Ahr valley near Cologne are becoming more credible claimants to the high prices that they enjoy due to their proximity to the Rhineland conurbation and I have tasted a red from pinot noir grown her in Belgium north of Liège near Tongeren and the Dutch border which is fruity and enjoyable (the estate is called Genoels-Elderen and the Chardonnay can be seriously good).

A bit further south in Alsace and Pfalz, the pinot based reds are getting much more stuffing than in the past. The Coteaux Champenois reds, such as from Bouzy, Aÿ and Ambonnay, have always been delicious in a light, elegant vein (apologies Mr. Parker!) but I have also noticed cases of more backbone creeping in lately.

If we believe the climate alarmists, Burgundy will have to abandon pinot noir in the second half of this century.

Thank you all for the info.!

Jim - That's fantastic that you are a winemaker! I had a 2004 Jadot Bourgogne recently and it was definitely sharp/acidic to me. It was my first ever burgundy, so I am not sure if it is supposed to taste that way or if I should have held it for a few years. What are your thoughts?

Maria, I love what I do!

To get a real feel for Burgundy, go to a good wine shop that carries many Burgundy producers, get some help with a mature selection, and treat yourself to a Premier Cru. It will cost you at least $50.00, probably more. Take your time with it over a nice dinner. I think you will see what all the fuss is about after that. Bourgogne is the bottom level quality and can be decent, but it will usually not give you the hedonistic experience you've no doubt heard about!

James, welcome to the forum! Where in Michigan do you grow your wines/grapes? I have visited the TVC area and was greatly impressed, but more so of the whites than the reds. I do think though that Michigan growers are really starting to understand red wine grapes. The reserve gamay noir from Ch Grand Traverse is awesome IMO. Also, are you aware of the gathering in Ann Arbor in Aug of every year known as Mo'Cool?

Bob, I grow in the very southwest corner of the state, just across the lake from Chicago. My site is located atop the ridge of glacial moraine hills just 9 miles from the beach. The ice age was kind to us, by leaving behind these wonderful mineral-rich stony clay soils. My site gets an average of 3000 heat units during the growing season, so we are warmer than Bordeaux and Burgundy. I am a traditionalist, specializing in the French classics. I grow and make Alsace style dry Riesling and Gewurztraminer, Burgundy-style Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, and a "Left Bank" style Bordeaux blend of Cabernet Sauvignon , Merlot, and Cabernet Franc. The reds and whites from our vineyard are very rich and elegant and can hide very easily in a blind tasting of their classical French counterparts.

Joel and Sally Goldberg of MoCool are customers of ours. There is a chance we will present this year at MoCool. We'd love to meet you!

Jim Lester
Wyncroft, LLC

Bob, I grow in the very southwest corner of the state, just across the lake from Chicago. My site is located atop the ridge of glacial moraine hills just 9 miles from the beach. The ice age was kind to us, by leaving behind these wonderful mineral-rich stony clay soils. My site gets an average of 3000 heat units during the growing season, so we are warmer than Bordeaux and Burgundy. I am a traditionalist, specializing in the French classics. I grow and make Alsace style dry Riesling and Gewurztraminer, Burgundy-style Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, and a "Left Bank" style Bordeaux blend of Cabernet Sauvignon , Merlot, and Cabernet Franc. The reds and whites from our vineyard are very rich and elegant and can hide very easily in a blind tasting of their classical French counterparts.

Very interesting Jim! How long have you been making wine?

To get a real feel for Burgundy, go to a good wine shop that carries many Burgundy producers, get some help with a mature selection, and treat yourself to a Premier Cru. It will cost you at least $50.00, probably more. Take your time with it over a nice dinner. I think you will see what all the fuss is about after that. Bourgogne is the bottom level quality and can be decent, but it will usually not give you the hedonistic experience you've no doubt heard about!

I will certainly do this...thanks for the advice

Jim, the Goldberg's are good people aren't they. If your wines are sold in Ann Arbor I would like to try some of them so if I can find them,I would buy some and bring them back to Lexington.so if you know where they are sold, please let me know either here or in a PM if you would rather. Thanks.

Very interesting Jim! How long have you been making wine?

Maria,

My first wine made from Michigan fruit was Pinot Noir and the year was 1983.
The wine turned out so well, I was shocked! I knew it wasn't any particular genius on my part, this being my first try! So I knew it had to be the quality of the Pinot that could be grown here. That was my original inspiration. About that time, Oregon was starting to get noticed for Pinot Noir. My parents-in-law happened to live in Tualitin, OR at the time, so we timed a visit to coincide with the first International Pinot Noir Celebration. That was a great experience as I got to meet many of Oregon's wine pioneers as well as some visiting Burgundians. I was inspired and was hooked!

Jim Lester

Jim, the Goldberg's are good people aren't they. If your wines are sold in Ann Arbor I would like to try some of them so if I can find them,I would buy some and bring them back to Lexington.so if you know where they are sold, please let me know either here or in a PM if you would rather. Thanks.

Bob,

Joel and Sally are generous warm-hearted folks who happen also to be very talented and intelligent. It's nice to have them here in MI. You might get a kick out of the link included below. Joel gives his opinions!

http://www.gangofpour.com/underground/2 ... croft.html

We sell most of our wine to our mailing list by the case only, but also to some hand-selected restaurants. In Ann Arbor, we have wines on the lists at The Chop House, Quarter Bistro, and The Earle. Unfortunately, we are not in wine shops, preferring to deal directly with the folks who buy and drink our wines! Many MI restaurants have a "take-out" license though so you should be able to find a bottle or two that way.

Jim Lester
Wyncroft, LLC

Thanks for posting the Gangoffour notes!! Sounds like an exceptional winery there, Michigan? who would have thought eh.

I have a certain experience in drinking old Burgundies.
It is absolutely fascinating.
Recently I have drunk a Meursault Bouchard 1846 and a Beaune Grèves Vigne de l'Enfant Jésus 1865 which were unbelievable. It is very hard to believe that what I say is true, as it fights against any common sense. But it is true.
My best ever Burgundies are :
- Montrachet Bouchard 1864
- Richebourg Domaine de la Romanée Conti 1929
- Musigny Coron Père & Fils 1899
- Romanée Conti 1945

and many others of this league.

To the initial question "meant for aging", I think that there is an evolution as people do not wait enough to drink wines : they are impatient. So, no Burgundy is "meant" to be drunk after 20 years, but it does it easily.
For me the pleasure with old Burgundies is with wines having around 80 years. But no wine maker makes a wine to be drunk when it is 80 years old. This would be silly. But it is a fact that the grace of the best Burgundies is with wines of the decade of the 20ies.

Thank you all for the info.!

Jim - That's fantastic that you are a winemaker! I had a 2004 Jadot Bourgogne recently and it was definitely sharp/acidic to me. It was my first ever burgundy, so I am not sure if it is supposed to taste that way or if I should have held it for a few years. What are your thoughts?

Maria, I love what I do!

To get a real feel for Burgundy, go to a good wine shop that carries many Burgundy producers, get some help with a mature selection, and treat yourself to a Premier Cru. It will cost you at least $50.00, probably more. Take your time with it over a nice dinner. I think you will see what all the fuss is about after that. Bourgogne is the bottom level quality and can be decent, but it will usually not give you the hedonistic experience you've no doubt heard about!

I did this for an anniversary dinner some years back. While I can't remember the exact wine I know that it was a premier cru and set me back $75. In short, it was simply amazing. Dinner lasted three hours and the wine really evolved over that time. It was well worth the money.

rwj

If we believe the climate alarmists, Burgundy will have to abandon pinot noir in the second half of this century.

Maybe not. We just might have to return to drinking the historically highly-praised RED wine vineyards in the Yonne Valley near Chablis. Vineyards surrounding the villages of Auxerre and Tonnerre were once as highly prized as Vougeot and Chambertin, but basically remained unplanted until the past decade or so (they were all destroyed during phyloxerra)... Clos de la Chainette, Les Olivettes etc were spoken of in the same vein as Romanee Conti in the early and mid-1800's...