Wine with Indian food? -Asimov

[Robin Garr]

Eric Asimov devotes some ink to a rethink on pairing wine with Indian food today, but I'm not so sure. Maybe in the kind of high-end Indian that he's holding up, where the kitchen and the sommelier work together to make pairings work. But the kind of U.S. Indian hole-in-the-walls that I love, where intense aromatics work together with fiery spice? I've always felt that serving wine with that kind of food is too much like pouring alcohol on a burn.

Read the story, then tell me where I'm wrong, here. Or don't read the story and tell me where I'm wrong, but reading the story first is good.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/14/dinin ... ntemail0=y

Not sure the distinction has to be between modern mild interpretations and hole-in-the-wall, because most places are inbetween. But sure, I don't think it's controversial to say that the spicier the food the more difficult it is to pair with wine.

Otherwise, the article was pretty interesting and I liked the points about European dishes being designed with gaps to be filled with wine, whereas Indian dishes are designed to be complete on the palate.

Never had an Indian dish that an off-dry Gewürztraminer couldn't tame.

Read the story, then tell me where I'm wrong, here. Or don't read the story and tell me where I'm wrong, but reading the story first is good.

I read the story and at the risk of sounding like a mealy-mouthed milquetoast, I don't think either of you are wrong. Several months ago, I ate at Rasika, a high-end Indian restaurant in D.C. name-checked by Asimov in the article. We ordered a bottle of Chinon, and if memory serves me correctly, it went beautifully with three of the four dishes we had, and not so great with one. It was a fascinating experience for me. But the dishes were highly complex and while spicy, did not have blistering heat.

For our local Indian not-so-high-end -- but still delicious -- restaurants, I order beer if eating there, but often have wine when doing takeout. I've found that lower-end Alsatian Rieslings like Trimbach (yellow label) and Austrian Gruner Veltliners work very well, but haven't tried some of the more unorthodox pairings suggested in the article. I share your skepticism that the latter would work, but until I've tried them I guess I'll have to withhold judgment.

I wouldn't generally try to pair wine with an authentic vindaloo dish for instance. But I don't have much problem with kormas, Kebabs, tandoori dishes, dals, biryani, etc . I do tend to open whites more with these diahes, and often with (a little) RS. But Salil often makes a big batch of biryani for wine dinners and it works fine.

I think the idea you need to look at dish as a whole (sauces, etc) rather than be formulaic is very true, for Indian and any cuisine.

I loved Tabla, and while I enjoyed his cooking at North End Grill, glad to see Cardoz is back to Indian cuisine.

[Robin Garr]

I guess it really comes down to this for me: I love wine, and I love good things to eat. I'm extremely interested in the world's cuisines, and have been lucky enough to enjoy many of them both in their own native lands and in good US restaurants. I know that it can be exciting to try to match wines with some of those foods.

But here's the catch: I'm not so into wine that I feel a need to take it where it wasn't meant to go. Cuisines outside the West, by and large, didn't evolve with wine in mind. Sure, we can generally make it work, but I just don't always feel a need to make it do so.

Does this mean I have to give up my wine geek's card?

I often eat 'Indian', and (long ago) ago I've eaten Indian food in India.

I always drink wine with Indian meals. I drink the wine I like with the food I like.

No way I'm going to order a Gewürztraminer

But here's the catch: I'm not so into wine that I feel a need to take it where it wasn't meant to go. Cuisines outside the West, by and large, didn't evolve with wine in mind. Sure, we can generally make it work, but I just don't always feel a need to make it do so.

I think it depends how strong you want this statement to be. I agree that many times wine seems too 'foreign' to a dish and I am not even tempted to pair wine (ramen or other Asian noodle soups come first to mind, as much for the soup/liquid as for the spices and foreignness).

But, I do have to question statements like 'where it wasn't meant to go'. Because that seems to assume an underlying constancy to the dishes and to the gastronomical culture, which I am not sure exists. Even simple dishes like pizza, pasta or quiche change over time and their current iterations would not be recognizable to French and Italians in the 1800s. And did cuisine in Sweden evolve with wine in mind? Is it more or less foreign than Vietnam or India for wine-food matching? Cuisine has also been a blend of global influences so am not sure how strong we can draw these cultural lines.

[Robin Garr]

I think it depends how strong you want this statement to be. I agree that many times wine seems too 'foreign' to a dish and I am not even tempted to pair wine (ramen or other Asian noodle soups come first to mind, as much for the soup/liquid as for the spices and foreignness).

But, I do have to question statements like 'where it wasn't meant to go'. Because that seems to assume an underlying constancy to the dishes and to the gastronomical culture, which I am not sure exists. Even simple dishes like pizza, pasta or quiche change over time and their current iterations would not be recognizable to French and Italians in the 1800s. And did cuisine in Sweden evolve with wine in mind? Is it more or less foreign than Vietnam or India for wine-food matching? Cuisine has also been a blend of global influences so am not sure how strong we can draw these cultural lines.

All true, Rahsaan. I was really speaking more generally, thinking in terms of the basic cuisines of the West that evolved with wine as opposed to those of regions that did not. But sure, the devil is in the details.

No way I'm going to order a Gewürztraminer

Oh, why not? Do you just not like the idea of GT with Indian food, or do you not like GT at all?

Some might find this article from Food and Wine written by Ray Isle interesting

http://www.foodandwine.com/blogs/whats- ... ndian-food

Salute

Goodness me, bubbly with everything? I find Indian cuisine not my real cup of tea but the other month one fine establishment here in town served a custard with the mains.

[David M. Bueker]

Indian food has such a wide variety. As such there are myriad dishes where wine works not only well, but very well. The "where it wasn't meant to go" comment closes the door on experimentation, and that is the end of knowledge.

[Robin Garr]

The "where it wasn't meant to go" comment closes the door on experimentation, and that is the end of knowledge.

Fair point. I was really swimming more with the current that muttered "You don't really have to drink wine with everything anyway." And when I go to a local Indian hole-in-the-wall that serves good but standard Indian food, I'm perfectly happy to open a big bottle of Taj Mahal or Kingfisher, or unsweetened iced tea.

I do often fool with wine matches when I make Indian food at home, though, and there I find that Riesling (!) often works surprisingly well, as does bubbly. But now, again, we're talking about thoughtful pairing that takes not only the spices but the ingredients into consideration, and around here, most of our Indian restaurants aren't really suited for that.

No way I'm going to order a Gewürztraminer

Oh, why not? Do you just not like the idea of GT with Indian food, or do you not like GT at all?

My previous statement said I drink the wine I like with the food I like. I don't like Gewürztraminer.

The oft touted reason for its 'suitability' for spicy food resting on Gewürz meaning 'spicy' is just fatuous. That many Gewürztraminers have noticeable residual sugar is a better reason for many finding it a suitable match with chilli.

If one likes Gewürztraminer then by all means order it, because IMO one should drink the wines one likes with the food one likes.

[Jenise]

Once upon a time I frequently dined at an Indian restaurant in Santa Monica who had a rose of cab sauv on the list from Simi Winery in Sonoma. I have never had a more perfect pairing. The wine was dry and the fruit moderate which worked fine with all the curries and because it was cab sauv there was a dusty quality to it that worked BEAUTIFULLY with anything basmati rice or lentil.

A zillion years have passed and nothing else has shown as well, for my tastes, except beer which I can't drink, until a recent discovery at a high end Indian restaurant, when my three dining companions all wanted beer or cocktails, that a low-alcohol dry artisinal apple cider was a pretty awesome companion for Indian food. Perfectly refreshing on the same level as beer, no worries about the food killing the drink's complexity, and low alcohol to boot.

I drink the wine I like with the food I like.

Peter, I think that you like good claret and you obviously like Indian food if you eat if often. So are you saying that you would pair those together? That is completely counter-intuitive for me. Pinotage might be better .

I thought that a very interesting article by Asimov. I have never had access to Indian cooking of that quality, so I would be prepared to accept those wine recommendations (and Dale's/Salil's) in the unlikely event of my coming across it. For ordinary Indian fare, I would never risk a delicate Riesling, even with RS, and I'm with Robin in going for beer.

The oft touted reason for its 'suitability' for spicy food resting on Gewürz meaning 'spicy' is just fatuous. That many Gewürztraminers have noticeable residual sugar is a better reason for many finding it a suitable match with chilli.

I never even thought about the "spice" aspect. For me it's the RS, the intrinsic fruitiness of GT, and its aromatic personality. And I think the aromatic part is key for me, because I don't like Riesling with Indian anywhere near as much, despite it being fruity and tending to have the RS.

I drink the wine I like with the food I like.

Peter, I think that you like good claret and you obviously like Indian food if you eat if often. So are you saying that you would pair those together? That is completely counter-intuitive for me. Pinotage might be better ..

Yep. One of my regular Indian restaurants has a St Emilion on its limited list and we always have that, the other has a Pinotage and I have that (unless Jo rolls her eyes at yet another Pinotage in which case we have Zinfandel)..

With takeaways at home it's Pinotage. Pinotage makes a great match for Indian and Asian foods*.

Johan Krige, owner of Kanonkop Estate, sells a lot in Hong Kong.

*And meat. And everything.

[David M. Bueker]

I am with you Ryan. I never think about Gewurz "spice" when matching Indian food. Peter must still be reading back issues of Decanter from the 1970s.

I'm with Ryan and David. When I'm on the road (no Indian resturants near where I live) I usually order Rogan Josh as carry-out and open a dry or nearly-so Alsatian or Alto Adige Gewurztraminer. I'm always very satisfied.

I'm not so into wine that I feel a need to take it where it wasn't meant to go. Cuisines outside the West, by and large, didn't evolve with wine in mind. Sure, we can generally make it work, but I just don't always feel a need to make it do so.

Does this mean I have to give up my wine geek's card?

Don't want to be a mealy-mouthed milquetoast either, but I'm with you, Robin, in the sense that I don't try to shoehorn wine into a situation where another beverage has always worked well for me. I visit the Northeast frequently, and I have tried white Burgundy with lobster, but for cultural reasons as well as gastronomic, I generally choose a good beer to accompany the beast. I'm not closeminded about trying a new pairing, but I'm at the point that someone else has to present it to me.

When I lived in Oz I was astonished to see that my local friends would bring their big Aussie reds when we went out for Indian food. I tried some of the wines and it confirmed my suspicions. As others have suggested, I will try a white with some RS in that situation, but it seems like I'm working hard when a better solution is at hand, in 12 ounce bottles.

I haven't tried sparkling wine with Indian food. Anyone?

[Robin Garr]

I haven't tried sparkling wine with Indian food. Anyone?

That's my default if I really want to go with wine with any fiery ethnic fare, and I think it works because the bubbles have a quenching effect. But in that context I'd go with Prosecco or something, and basically think of it as "grape beer."

[David M. Bueker]

OK, I am from New England, and have lived there for 95% of my life. Chardonnay based Champagne, White Burgundy and non-over-the-top-oaky California Chardonnay are all great with lobster with butter or lemon. Beer is a terrible match IMO. Just awful.