Cheese vs. Wine...Why The Difference??

Cheese: This is a product that comes from a cow (or other animals) that is chowing down on local grasses (usually) that are grown from the soil. It is well known that great cheeses display their respective terroir.
Wine: This is the fermented product that comes from grapes grown on a grapevine that is grown on the soil. It is also well known that great wines display their respective terroir.

So both products come from a very analogous process...a product arising indirectly from a connection to the soil.

In the case of great wine, we know that the vine must struggle, be grown at the limits of its survivability. This is why you can't make great wine in the Central Vlly. The vines have too much water, too much fertile soil, they're too fat & happy for their own good to make great wines. The great wines are grown from marginal climates, where the vines must struggle to survive. You see the pictures of these old vines, gnarly & ugly, struggling to survive. These are where the great wines come from, this is the image we see behind the great wines.

In the case of great cheeses, we know that the cows must be contented, fat & happy, feeding on these lush green alpine grasses, looking at us w/ these soulful brown eyes, munching away on her cud. Cows that are well-cared for and given their every wish. Have you ever seen the image of an emaciated/scrawny/starving/bone sticking out cow and told this is the source of the greatest cheeses??

So the images we have for what it takes to make great cheese and what it takes to make great wines are exactly out of whack...totally the opposite of one another.

Anybody have an idea why this dichotomy between wine & cheese and our perception of what it takes to make great wine/cheese that displays their respective terroir?? Why can't a starved/emaciated cow result in great cheese? Or does anybody care or ever thought about it??

This question was alluded to in MarkMatthews book on his discussion of terroir and got me thinking.

Tom

[David M. Bueker]

Starving cows do not give milk, or at least not much.

Starving cows do not give milk, or at least not much.

So, David......why is large volumes of milk from a cow "good"...but large volumes of juice
from large berries and well-irrigated vines "bad"?? Don't quite understand.
Tom

[David M. Bueker]

One is a plant and one is an animal. Not the same systems. Deal with it.

I don't think its analogous.

Because the cow comes into it.

Analogous is grass vs grape. Maybe milk and wine, maybe

But the cow - or the farmer - wants the most milk (the cow to feed its young - the farmer to sell), thus rich grass and healthy cows

But the quality wine farmer wants wine quality grapes.

What the vine wants is a big ripe grape to temp animals and birds to take and spread the grape seeds and or the grape to feed the seeds inside.

But the grapes best for the vine don't make the best wine; we want small grapes with a high skin to juice ratio, and we want acidity, and we want little liquid in the grape but rather concentrated flavours in the liquid - so those are the way the grapes are farmed.

Maybe scrawny cows just existing on the poorest grass may make the best flavoured milk.

But it seems to me (and I know and care nothing of cheese except I wish they didn't stick it in every dish) that cheese flavour (and stink) is all about how it is made, what bacteria is used and etc.

In other words, the milk is very much a blank canvas to the cheesemaker...

Whereas wine 'is made in the vineyard', cheese is made in the cheesery

[Robin Garr]

I love the concept. I red Tom's post with fascination from the very start.

I think the others nailed it with the simple observation that a cow is not a grapevine, and plants and animals have significantly different ways of operating.

But I wouldn't want to quibble with the idea behind Tom's post. Until he got to the reductio ad absurdam, he had me hooked!

I don't think its analogous.

Because the cow comes into it.
Analogous is grass vs grape. Maybe milk and wine, maybe

But the cow - or the farmer - wants the most milk (the cow to feed its young - the farmer to sell), thus rich grass and healthy cows

But the quality wine farmer wants wine quality grapes.

True, Peter. The farmer wants quantity of milk to make the most milk he can. But there are very well some farmers that want the quantity of grapes they can achieve....7 tons/acre rather than 1 ton/acre.

What the vine wants is a big ripe grape to temp animals and birds to take and spread the grape seeds and or the grape to feed the seeds inside.

But the grapes best for the vine don't make the best wine; we want small grapes with a high skin to juice ratio, and we want acidity, and we want little liquid in the grape but rather concentrated flavours in the liquid - so those are the way the grapes are farmed.

Maybe scrawny cows just existing on the poorest grass may make the best flavoured milk.
That may very well be the case, Peter, that deprived cows may just make the best cheese or flavorful milk.
But the cow farmers are taught that large volume is the best cheese. Why??


In other words, the milk is very much a blank canvas to the cheesemaker...
Whereas wine 'is made in the vineyard', cheese is made in the cheesery

The bottom line is that the milk farmer is taught that large production is the right goal. Do you suppose
that any of the cheesemakers go out an taste the milk to see if it's concentrated to make the best cheese??
I seriously doubt it. In grapes, the farmer (in many cases) is taught that high-volume juice is "bad". Is that really so??
(Matthews addresses this very issue in his book). In cheese, volume is "good". In wine, volume is "bad".
Why is that. Just to state that in one case, there is an animal connecting the soil to the final product, and in the other case
it's a plant connecting the soil to the final product...just doesn't hack it for me. Volume="good" for cheese. Volume="bad"
for wine. I'd like to know why one or the other.
Tom

[David M. Bueker]

Well guess what Tom, many cheese makers only use milk produced in very specific ways. Some only use spring milk because of what the cows feed on. Some have different requirements. They have standards, but they are different from winemaking. Shocking I know, but just the same, it's a completely different product. And if you stir them together in your pot you end up with a mess.

Well guess what Tom, many cheese makers only use milk produced in very specific ways. Some only use spring milk because of what the cows feed on. Some have different requirements. They have standards, but they are different from winemaking. Shocking I know, but just the same, it's a completely different product. And if you stir them together in your pot you end up with a mess.

Absolutely, David. It is well known that cheeses made when the cows feed on the lush Spring grasses,
that their milk gives better/more flavorful cheese than those fed on silage in the Winter. It is well known
that cheese made from cows feeding on the alpine pastures gives better/fresher/more flavor full cheese.
It's that...whatta those wine-geeks call it...."terroir".
But do any of the cheesemakers go out and taste the milk before transforming it into cheese? Do any of the
cheesemakers demand that the farmer reduce the grass intake of their cows in order to produce a more
concentrated/flavorful milk & therefore better cheese?? I've not heard of that.

It's all about connecting the soil w/ the consumer of the final product. Whether there is a grapevine or a cow
in there making the connection...it's still about the soil to the product.

And me?? Stir-the-pot?? Gasp...I'm shocked, David!!!
Tom

there is an animal connecting the soil to the final product, and in the other case
it's a plant connecting the soil to the final product...just doesn't hack it for me.

Plant vs animal is a pretty huge difference. Chloroplasts aren't in animals. Cell walls, etc.

Plus it's animal>plant> soil not animal>soil.

If you starved a cow I'd assume there would be some form of ketosis, so even if the cow still produced milk, I'd bet the pH, fat content, casein content, etc would change. Who knows if one could even make cheese from that milk? I for one am not going to encourage animal cruelty to find out.

One assumes that the idea that stressed vines produce better wine grapes came about through observation. Hopefully no one wants to observe starving cows.

there is an animal connecting the soil to the final product, and in the other case
it's a plant connecting the soil to the final product...just doesn't hack it for me.

Plant vs animal is a pretty huge difference. Chloroplasts aren't in animals. Cell walls, etc.

Plus it's animal>plant> soil not animal>soil.

If you starved a cow I'd assume there would be some form of ketosis, so even if the cow still produced milk, I'd bet the pH, fat content, casein content, etc would change. Who knows if one could even make cheese from that milk? I for one am not going to encourage animal cruelty to find out.

One assumes that the idea that stressed vines produce better wine grapes came about through observation. Hopefully no one wants to observe starving cows.

Matthews has a lot to say on that very subject.

Why is it OK to starve vines but not OK to starve cows?? And it's not necessary to "starve" the cow...just cut
back its intake so that it can make more concentrated/flavorful milk and maybe not be as fat & happy. Maybe
cows that are deficit-fed (like deficit-irrigated), but not starved, make for more flavorful milk.
Tom

So, David......why is large volumes of milk from a cow "good"...but large volumes of juice
from large berries and well-irrigated vines "bad"?? Don't quite understand.
Tom

Large volumes of milk from a cow is not "good", if what you are after is top-quality taste and nutrition value. Cattle breeds such as Holstein that produce vast quantities of dilute and characterless milk are the bovine equivalents of grape varieties such as Aramon.

If your end product is going to be 2%, skim, or low-fat milk, then taste doesn't matter and Holstein's your cow, just as Aramon is the grape of choice for producing cheap French plonk.

-Paul W.

[quote="TomHill"So, David......why is large volumes of milk from a cow "good"...but large volumes of juice
from large berries and well-irrigated vines "bad"?? Don't quite understand.
Tom

Large volumes of milk from a cow is not "good", if what you are after is top-quality taste and nutrition value. Cattle breeds such as Holstein that produce vast quantities of dilute and characterless milk are the bovine equivalents of grape varieties such as Aramon.

If your end product is going to be 2%, skim, or low-fat milk, then taste doesn't matter and Holstein's your cow, just as Aramon is the grape of choice for producing cheap French plonk.

-Paul W.

Something like 90% of Wisconsin cows are Holsteins. And their cheese is pretty good. I think the Uplands PleasantRidgeReserve is mostly Holstein milk.
Tom

[David M. Bueker]

By the way, I am willing to bet that many cheese makers taste the milk before they make the cheese.

The rest of this is just silly pot stirring.

By the way, I am willing to bet that many cheese makers taste the milk before they make the cheese.

The rest of this is just silly pot stirring.

Probably they do, David. Just to make sure that it's not off. But, has you know, winemakers are out there
in the vnyd tasting the grapes for physiological ripeness to decide to harvest. Do any of the cheesemakers
taste the milk and know, a priori..."this is going to make a great cheese". I tend to doubt it.
Tom

[Robin Garr]

But, as you know, winemakers are out there
in the vnyd tasting the grapes for physiological ripeness to decide to harvest. Do any of the cheesemakers
taste the milk and know, a priori..."this is going to make a great cheese". I tend to doubt it.

I think that's a fascinating question, though. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that cheesemakers - good, artisanal ones anyway - don't taste the milk regularly and consider that in cheesemaking. I know a goat cheese maker in Southern Indiana who has a pretty good rep for her cheese. I'll try to track her down and ask about that sometime.

[David M. Bueker]

You going to ask if she starves her cows to get better cheese? Is she enslaved to a lawyer in Monktown?

[Robin Garr]

You going to ask if she starves her cows to get better cheese? Is she enslaved to a lawyer in Monktown?

Goats.

And no, the question wasn't starving. I'm with you on that one. I'm curious, though, now that Tom brought it up, if small-farm cheesemakers do pay much attention to the milk. Mary (a dairy farmer's daughter) tells me that you definitely don't want yer holsteins eating wild onions. Her dad didn't make cheese, though ...

Maybe Tom is over thinking the subject. But one thing for sure I think it reinforces the concept of “terroir” of an agricultural product and the importance of the role of man and culture in all of this. Doesn’t really matter if it was “accidentally discovered” (wine) or “accidentally invented” (cheese),

Salute

Why is it OK to starve vines but not OK to starve cows?? And it's not necessary to "starve" the cow...just cut
back its intake so that it can make more concentrated/flavorful milk and maybe not be as fat & happy. Maybe
cows that are deficit-fed (like deficit-irrigated), but not starved, make for more flavorful milk.
Tom

Starving (or restricting intake) a cow would be more like shading a vine- sunlight is the source of energy for plants, not soil or water.

[David M. Bueker]

Cows are also sentient beings. Starving them in the name of pot stirring is cruel.

David wrote:
It’s a completely different product. And if you stir them together in your pot you end up with a mess.

I’ll have to disagree with that, both cheese and wine (and cheese making and wine making) both have a lot of parallels. As eluded by others the concept of “terroir” is applicable (and very important) for both cheese and wine. The production techniques and agricultural aspects are very similar (for both products you must start off with the highest quality of “raw material” and “favorable or desirable” microbes must be present). Appreciation –wise similar evaluation techniques, (mature, young) even vocabulary are very similar. Besides wine and cheese were meant for each other (for that matter we can throw in bread) their history and evolution are also parallel.
I would assume that milk that is closest to its “original” or “raw” state is best suited for cheese making.

Salute

I don't terroir is as important in cheese, as I think the bacteria introduced is the main flavour component. Yeast is important, but the grape juice is the main component of wine.

Another way of looking at it is the grape juice or grape must and the milk is the medium the yeast and bacteria have to work with. Wine makers look for certain qualities in their juice / must, cheese makers look for certain qualities in their milk.

Salute