Bubbly- "Zero Dose" "Non Dose"??????

The “Methode Champenoise” or “Traditional Method” involves two additions or doses if you will, and both play a major role in determining the final taste profile of the finished bubbly. There is the (first “addition” or “dosage”) “liqueur de triage”, basically this is a sugary syrupy with wine and yeast mixed in and is responsible for the “second” or “bottle fermentation”. The “liqueur d expedition” is the final addition or dose added near the end of the Champagne process (usually after disgorgement, removal of the frozen sediment or plug). Now “Zero dose” I would assume would mean the “liqueur d expedition” has zero sugar. “Non-dose” I would assume no” liqueur d expedition” was added (if the wine was labeled ”Champagne”).
For a wine labeled “Petillant” as in Dale’s tasting note (NV Pinon Vouvray Petillant Non-Dose Brut) are they referring to “liqueur d triage” or “liqueur d expedition”. Is this wine produced using the “Traditional Method” or “Methode Ancestrale” (the bubbles are the result of the yeast conducting primary (first) alcoholic fermentation)? Could this wine be considered a “Pet-Nat”? Could Champagne producers use the “Methode Ancestrale” and still label their wines Champagne?

Salute

Not sure I understand all your questions, but sure that the Pinon is produced by the "methode traditionnelle" (aka methode champenoise).It is not a pet-nat.
Just no dosage after disgorgement. Same as Brut Nature champagnes. Use of methode champenoise is mandatory for any wine labelled Champagne.

Use of methode champenoise is mandatory for any wine labeled Champagne.

Why? If “Method Ancestrale” is the “old fashion way” of producing sparklers in Champagne, any sparkler made in Champagne, France should be able to be labeled ”Champagne” (“Champagne-Nat”).

Salute

[David M. Bueker]

Why? France, that's why!

Why? If “Method Ancestrale” is the “old fashion way” of producing sparklers in Champagne, any sparkler made in Champagne, France should be able to be labeled ”Champagne” (“Champagne-Nat”).

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I'm bewildered. Who said "Method Ancestrale is the old fashion way of producing sparklers in Champagne"?
It's the old fashioned/traditional way in Limoux, Cerdon, etc.

More importantly, what does Brut Nature/Non Dose/Zero Dosage have to do with Methode Ancestrale vs Methode Traditionnelle? By definition it's really only used in Methode Traditionnelle.

For a wine labeled “Petillant” as in Dale’s tasting note (NV Pinon Vouvray Petillant Non-Dose Brut) are they referring to “liqueur d triage” or “liqueur d expedition”. Is this wine produced using the “Traditional Method” or “Methode Ancestrale” (the bubbles are the result of the yeast conducting primary (first) alcoholic fermentation)? Could this wine be considered a “Pet-Nat”?

Leonard Oakes, a local (Niagara USA) makes a Petillant Naturel Riesling. The wine is bottled before the primary fermentation has completed. It is not disgorged and is slightly cloudy. It also has a very interesting label. I have yet to get my hands on a bottle. http://newyorkcorkreport.com/blog/2015/10/22/leonard-oakes-estate-winery-2014-petillant-naturel-riesling/

“Pet-Nat” technically is not a “style” of wine but a “phase” or “stage” all fermented wines go through. (At some time in the process of making any wine a significant amount of CO2 will be present. It all depends on when it is “stopped”, and released for consumption).
“Method Champenoise” could be thought of as the “man-made way” to make a bubbly. “Method Ancestrale” could be considered a little less “man-made”. A sparkling wine could be produced using “Method Ancestrale” and a “liqueur d expedition” could very well be added.

Salute

[David M. Bueker]

"Pet-nat" sure is a phase. Let's hope it's a phase that passes more quickly than the Orange Wine phase.

Use of methode champenoise is mandatory for any wine labeled Champagne.

Why? If “Method Ancestrale” is the “old fashion way” of producing sparklers in Champagne, any sparkler made in Champagne, France should be able to be labeled ”Champagne” (“Champagne-Nat”).

To be called AOC Champagne, a wine must conform to all of the rules of the appellation. In the case of Champagne, one of those rules is that the wine must be made using methode champenoise. So if you don't do that secondary fermentation in the bottle, legally it isn't Champagne.

-Paul W.

"Pet-nat" sure is a phase. Let's hope it's a phase that passes more quickly than the Orange Wine phase.

I can't say I tend to go seeking Pet-Nats, but they can be very refreshing at say a summer picnic. It's not like they're taking a big market share!

As long as man is making wines “Pet-Nats” will never disappear.

Salute

In the case of producing a vintage Champagne and not fining and filtering your base still wines, just letting them naturally “clear” themselves, is it absolutely necessary to have yeast mixed in with the “liqueur d triage” to induce a “new” second fermentation or could the “first fermentation” just be renewed or “re-started” in bottle? The recipes for the second dose “liqueur de expedition” are well-guarded Champagne House secrets. In other words does the Champagne AOC dictate the ingredients for the “liqueur d triage” in using the Champagne Method?

Salute