Organic and Biodynamic wines: yes or not?

Some years ago, I was thinking about the reasons for what often my preferred wines always had the same and the known taste. Yes, it gave me the sureness to drink what I was looking for, I was sure also to make good impression for my guests during dinners, meetings, etc. etc. but.....

...why each bottle was always the same of others even in the case of different vintage? Why the taste has been standardized?

So, I said it to same friends of mine, even to some sommeliers. For some reasons I cant write publicly what they told me about the same taste for each bottle...I dont want to create a forum flame (but I'm pretty sure YOU know what I mean...), and they suggested me to try organic/biodynamic ones. I did it. Before to tell how was my new experience, I'm wondering to you what do you think about those wines. Yes or not on them?

I'm very interested.

PS Sorry for my poor english

I'm agnostic about organic/biodynamic. There are many excellent producers using these methods but just as many, if not more, who do not.

However, it is a fact, in France at least, that many passionate and perfectionist producers are moving towards organic/biodynamic in the quest for greater purity and perfection. There are, however, curiously few of these in the Bordeaux region.

At the top level, I am incapable of distinguishing between wines made from organic/biodynamic grapes and those from conventionally grown grapes.

Thank you Tim;

honestly, in Italy they are growing up because of the need to have "clean" and "sure" wine. In some way it's curios, the ancient method are becoming the...future methods!

What Tim said.

In my experience those who tend to get involved in sustainable, organic and even biodynamic viticulture and winemaking show great enthusiasm and interest, and almost inevitably produce more individualistic expression in their wines, as opposed to the so-called "commercial" and volume-oriented wineries which have strong pressures to retain a single over-arching style for famliarity to the consumer. An drinker of organic wines is more willing to accept differences between wines and vintages as "what nature gave", whereas a drinker of volume wine simply wants every bottle to taste pretty much the same.

I know many winemakers who do both organic and high volume, with very different processes and results according to what is being made.

As with anything, though, there are outliers and extremists, some who mask incompetence with with philosophy and cant, some who literally prefer foul tasting wine made through approved methods to very good wine made by "commercial" methods.

There is also a human tendency to push oneself further and further out to extremes....from sustainable to organic to biodynamic to so-called "natural" or orange wine. Honest desire to experiment and discover, or merely pushing the limits for the sake of being different and noticeable? You have to decide each individual on its own merits.

“Why each bottle was always the same of others even in the case of different vintage?”

Could just mean the grape variety or varieties chosen for a given site has consistent climatic conditions year after year to ripen those grapes to the same ripeness level year after year.

Salute
BTW Welcome to WLDG!

What Tim said.

In my experience those who tend to get involved in sustainable, organic and even biodynamic viticulture and winemaking show great enthusiasm and interest, and almost inevitably produce more individualistic expression in their wines, as opposed to the so-called "commercial" and volume-oriented wineries which have strong pressures to retain a single over-arching style for famliarity to the consumer. An drinker of organic wines is more willing to accept differences between wines and vintages as "what nature gave", whereas a drinker of volume wine simply wants every bottle to taste pretty much the same.

I know many winemakers who do both organic and high volume, with very different processes and results according to what is being made.

As with anything, though, there are outliers and extremists, some who mask incompetence with with philosophy and cant, some who literally prefer foul tasting wine made through approved methods to very good wine made by "commercial" methods.

There is also a human tendency to push oneself further and further out to extremes....from sustainable to organic to biodynamic to so-called "natural" or orange wine. Honest desire to experiment and discover, or merely pushing the limits for the sake of being different and noticeable? You have to decide each individual on its own merits.

Dear Hoke,

congratulations for your post; you have totally explained what I want to say, maybe better than me. Wine is alive, it changes as men, and then, welcome to new proposal instead of the same same flavour, tastes we laready know since many years!

[David M. Bueker]

It really depends on a number of factors. If a producer is working with fruit from organic/biodynamic sites, but uses cultured yeasts and 100% new oak then the wines will taste more like the winemaking than the carefully tended grapes. There are plenty of producers who work this way.

Some producers (e.g. Nikolaihof in Austria) farm biodynamically AND use very little in terms of winemaking manipulations in the cellar. Those are the wines where I see a difference, and really want to spend my money.

“Why each bottle was always the same of others even in the case of different vintage?”

Could just mean the grape variety or varieties chosen for a given site has consistent climatic conditions year after year to ripen those grapes to the same ripeness level year after year.

Salute
BTW Welcome to WLDG!

Each bottle must be the same year after year only because the client wants this. This is the point: wine is made following the preferences of the market, but wine is always different of course, I mean about the vintage: too much rain, too much sun, etc. etc. If the new taste is different than that we usually know is very probably that we change farm, wine, producer.....and so, better (for the seller) that we can recognize immediately what we already know.

It really depends on a number of factors. If a producer is working with fruit from organic/biodynamic sites, but uses cultured yeasts and 100% new oak then the wines will taste more like the winemaking than the carefully tended grapes. There are plenty of producers who work this way.

Some producers (e.g. Nikolaihof in Austria) farm biodynamically AND use very little in terms of winemaking manipulations in the cellar. Those are the wines where I see a difference, and really want to spend my money.

Yes, I totally agree, only one little thing: the wine starts in the field and continue also in the cellar.

This is a short resume about organic/biodynamic wines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPFWF1r0Jlw

thing that's most important to me is the wine tastes good.

Not been impressed so far with any 'natural' wines I've had.

Been impressed with some wines from organically and bio-dynamically grown grapes, but the whole thing is a matter of definition - whose definition?

They do everything following the phases of the sun and the moon and the natural rithms; more, they use only organic composit to manure the plants.

Define organic, that's what I mean.

So a farmer says he uses organic manure....

What does that mean? Does it have to be certified by an internationally recognised organisation?

Which organisation, which rules? We all think we know what organic and bio-dynamic means but we don't all agree on a definition.

Viscardo, one of the most memorable threads on this site was initiated a few years ago by a person virulently opposed to biodynamics. Unfortunately I can’t remember his name in order to search for that thread in the archive.

He was obviously a scientific person of rationalist approach. He claimed that Steiner and his followers were charlatans and that their methods have no scientific merit. He went so far as to claim that producers used the method simply as a marketing gimmick to convince the gullible like ourselves and he refused on principle to consume the wines of a biodynamic producer.

I think he was surprised by how little support he got on this board. Most people thought, like me, that it was pointless to deprive ourselves of the many excellent wines being made from biodynamic cultivation, whatever we think of the intellectual basis of the method.

A pragmatic approach was that of Noël Pinguet, formerly head of Huet at Vouvray, who said that, whilst some of the practices seem pretty wacky individually, he has thought that he made better wine when he practiced them in their entirety.

Thank you very much, Tim.

I only think that the best way to understand every wine is to taste it or some of them, this is very important. Many many friends of mine have changed their opinion and saved livers and stomach.....me too!

[David M. Bueker]

Whether biodynamics have any merit or not, producers who follow the requirements tend to be super meticulous which improves the wines. That's really all I care about!

[Robin Garr]

This is exactly where I come out, David. Let the wine speak. And to a surprising extent, organic/biodynamic producers make very interesting wines. My intuition is that this reflects a deep, intense, "half-crazy" passion for making wine, and it shows, rather than any actual physical influence from burying an ox horn full of dried manure by the dark of the moon.

The property that Hoke mentions (Bonterra, I assume) is interesting, because my intuition holds that corporate production and true biodynamic passion aren't compatible. Even if the wine makers want to go full bio, it's hard to imagine the bean counters back at the head shed not having some questions about ROI. But what do I know? I do know that I like - don't always love, but definitely like - most of the Bonterra line.

Viscardo, one of the most memorable threads on this site was initiated a few years ago by a person virulently opposed to biodynamics. Unfortunately I can’t remember his name in order to search for that thread in the archive.
.

'This one?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20194&p=172935&hilit=STEINER#p172914

My position remains the same. I can't see how the cow horns and astrology could help, but have many producers who I like who use BD. Mine is not to question the how.

Whether biodynamics have any merit or not, producers who follow the requirements tend to be super meticulous which improves the wines. That's really all I care about!

I think this is the point in a nutshell. I am VERY skeptical about some of the stuff, which verges on basic sympathetic magic and superstition (some of their claims remind me of the ultimate pseudoscience, Homeopathy, "the One Woo To Rule Them All" (hat tip to blogger Orac at Respectful Insolence). Yet, the meticulousness cannot be denied. I am don't enjoy that much of the smooth, super-fruity, super-ripe, and vanilla oakshake style which dominates to some extent the wine industry-at least in the United States./
\

Yes, could be very difficult to think that cow horn, silicium, moon and other stuffs makes better wine. But is true that, for example high and low water of the sea (I hope the translation works well...) is because of the moon. And all things (animals and other) inside feel the influence of this.

Even women....but this is another discussion....

Yes, but my friendly question: have you ever tried these wines?

Viscardo, one of the most memorable threads on this site was initiated a few years ago by a person virulently opposed to biodynamics. Unfortunately I can’t remember his name in order to search for that thread in the archive.
.

'This one?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20194&p=172935&hilit=STEINER#p172914

My position remains the same. I can't see how the cow horns and astrology could help, but have many producers who I like who use BD. Mine is not to question the how.

Thanks, Dale. That was the thread and a thunderingly good thread too. This one as well. Thanks Viscardo.

What David said. Whether biodynamics itself has any benefit, it acts as a selective filter on the winemakers. Sloppy or lazy winemakers can't be bothered to follow all the fussy and time-consuming procedures involved in biodynamics. Those who follow the practice will be the conscientious and meticulous, and by paying more attention to what they are doing they will tend to make better wines.

If you factor out all the woo-woo aspects of biodynamics, you're left with basic, good, organic farming. So it does no harm.

-Paul W.

This is obviously a well-trod pathway here, but with enough scenery to bring it back around for another hike. And that's because new pilgrims appear amongst us old hoary hikers (Hey, who you callling hoary!)

At risk of shilling, I'll have to go to my Wayback Machine to resurrect something I wrote years ago on this topic for Organic Wine Monthly: Farming Is An Unnatural Act.http://www.organicwinejournal.com/index.php/2008/09/farming-is-an-unnatural-act-a-tour-around-mcnab-ranch/

It pretty much encapsulates what Robin (who's been to the place and had a taste of the green Kool-Aid but remains a skeptical journalist, as he should; and to his salient point, I've liked some of the wines from there and not liked others, but that's not the point), Dale, Paul, David, Mark Lipton, and others have so elegantly opined: whether you "believe" in it, understand it, or just allow it without any sort of faith system, the impulse of sustainability/organics/biodynamics, has been very much a force in our wine world, and the results have been profound in many ways (whehter scientifically verified or not.) And after all is said and done, it is really all about the pure, shining fact: the more care and attention you put into your vineyard, the better the result.

For most of the organic/biodynamic growers/winemakers, it always seemed to come down to the one thing: what kind of parent are you?