Question about the definition of "Brett"

Newbie question: I love leather in Chianti Bordeaux and some California wines. In reading the lexicon's definition of "Brett," I assume that "leather" notes are not always/primarily a sign of "Brett", especially when the wine is otherwise "clean" (non-stinky)?

I am always thinking "band-aid' when referring to brett. Jamie Goode in his excellent book "Wine Science"on page 136 lists the following........Ammonia, mouse droppings,manure, burnt beans (!), barnyard, stable, leathery, wet dog, cheesy etc'

For further info, check chapter 18 Brettanomyces.

don't assume that you can identify brett - believe it or not many people cannot. the bandaids aroma is a precursor to really bretty smells and is detected by even fewer people. i remember once at a tasting of father/son wines - the son took over the winemaking in a particular year and in a vertical tasting - the brett was obvious in those wines - at least i thought so. but in asking at tables of 10 - only 2 or 3 per table at most were willing to say they could detect it. 'leather' would be a descriptor only of very lightly affected wines - if you've never actually gotten 'poopy barnyard', then you aren't sensitive to it in all liklihood. but the problem even with leather is that leathery chianti or bordeaux or other wine are too much like each other - that is, the leather (or in some cases oak or ..... ) hides the specific character of that region. for people who like oaky or leathery or whatever wines - it pretty much doesn't matter where the wine comes from. for other people, anything that makes a wine taste like others rather than itself is a problem.

Brian,

In short, leathery is not necessarily an identification of Brett.

i'm not certain that IS what i meant; and in any event that is not ALL i meant.

That was not a comment on your post, Creighton, it was all I meant to post on the subject.

Newbie question: I love leather in Chianti Bordeaux and some California wines. In reading the lexicon's definition of "Brett," I assume that "leather" notes are not always/primarily a sign of "Brett", especially when the wine is otherwise "clean" (non-stinky)?

Leather is not always a sign of Brett - I get 'nice' leather in non-Bretty wines, but 'stinky sweaty horse saddle' leather is a sure sign of Brett.

Here's another desciptor to add to the Brett vocabulary - burnt electronics. If your computer has ever blown up, you will know what I mean. Another is burning bakerlite.

Bandaid is a good one, but I find that some types of bandaid are more bretty than others - especially the thin plastic ones. There are other medicinal aromas to be considered too - think about it next time you scrape your skin and apply ointment or mercurachrome (is that still around?) or whatever.

Cheers,
Sue

Hi Sue, lots of chat over here about NZ PN. Not too many seem impressed so what (entry level type) wines should we be looking out for?

Hi Sue, lots of chat over here about NZ PN. Not too many seem impressed so what (entry level type) wines should we be looking out for?

Bob
Not entry level (nor am I Sue!), but Martinborough Vineyard has been a big favourite over the years. I suspect it will be pushing Can$40+ a bottle though. Personally I favour Martinborough as a region over Marlborough and Central Otago - more track record IMO.
regards
Ian

Hi Sue, lots of chat over here about NZ PN. Not too many seem impressed so what (entry level type) wines should we be looking out for?

Uh! I thought we were talking about Brett. Although I have to say that Brett in Pinot Noir is attention grabbing. It sticks out like a broken leg in a cast. Yuck!

Newbie question: I love leather in Chianti Bordeaux and some California wines. In reading the lexicon's definition of "Brett," I assume that "leather" notes are not always/primarily a sign of "Brett", especially when the wine is otherwise "clean" (non-stinky)?

Leather is not always a sign of Brett - I get 'nice' leather in non-Bretty wines, but 'stinky sweaty horse saddle' leather is a sure sign of Brett.

Here's another desciptor to add to the Brett vocabulary - burnt electronics. If your computer has ever blown up, you will know what I mean. Another is burning bakerlite.

Bandaid is a good one, but I find that some types of bandaid are more bretty than others - especially the thin plastic ones. There are other medicinal aromas to be considered too - think about it next time you scrape your skin and apply ointment or mercurachrome (is that still around?) or whatever.

Cheers,
Sue

I think the Hippy Cabernet Sauvignon I bought this summer was very, very bretty, then

Hi Sue, lots of chat over here about NZ PN. Not too many seem impressed so what (entry level type) wines should we be looking out for?

Uh! I thought we were talking about Brett. Although I have to say that Brett in Pinot Noir is attention grabbing. It sticks out like a broken leg in a cast. Yuck!

It`s called thread hijacking!!!

Brett tastes like plastic or burnt plastic. The plastic description has been shown to be most accurate...Here is a quote from a study on the topic. They used different descriptors and found that plastic taste correlated with the presence the brett yeasts.

"This study of commercial wines supports the conclusion from an earlier descriptive analysis study based on the direct addition of a 4-ethyl phenol to red wine: the amount of 4-ethyl phenol quickly changes the wine aroma from pleasant to unpleasant with a concentration increase from 2 to 4 mg/L (Etiévant et al., 1989). Our investigation shows that aroma modifications by Brettanomyces yeasts can be reliably detected and quantified with trained tasters. Further investigations into the chemical basis of the “Brett” aromas will allow us to use chemical indicators to detect activity of these yeasts early."

http://dspace.library.cornell.edu/handle/1813/398

How about plastic buttermilk? Here is what I have done. Find a Wine that you think is heavy brett and give a sample to a self proclaimed expert and after a few people confirm your tasting you will easily taste it. I throw away bottles with brett in it. I don't go to local wineries where I have tasted it. This is probably why I don't like most French wine I taste.

...and here I thought "band-aid" was a descriptor for the aroma of poorly made pinotage.

In the Oxford, Jancis Robinson describes the effect of Brettanomyces as "mousey" or "metallic," neither of which seems satisfactory to me. If a wine's nose has an overpowering aroma of baby diapers, that's Brett to me. Some people (the English) like it.

By the way, Brett is your most likely reward for not using enough sulphur dioxide.

a lot of what is written by the others sounds off to me - like they really don't get it. plastic? no way.

...and here I thought "band-aid" was a descriptor for the aroma of poorly made pinotage.

In the Oxford, Jancis Robinson describes the effect of Brettanomyces as "mousey" or "metallic," neither of which seems satisfactory to me. If a wine's nose has an overpowering aroma of baby diapers, that's Brett to me. Some people (the English) like it.

By the way, Brett is your most likely reward for not using enough sulphur dioxide.

There is no one Brett aroma and flavor; there are different strains of Brettanomyces, and they produce different aromas.

Several years ago someone at Davis was studying Brett and deliberately contaminated samples of a red wine with different strains, then organised a tasting of those samples. There were a broad range of off aromas, including Band-Aid, burnt beans, and 'lead pencil'.

Just to add my 2 cents...

As Oliver said different Brettanomyces strains can produce different aromas. Different environments will cause the yeasts to produce slightly different metabolic products. Finally these metabolic products will have different aromas at different concentrations. This explains why there is no one "Brett" aroma.

The two chemical markers used to determine the presence of Brettanomyces in wine are 4-ethyl phenol and 4-vinyl phenol. 4-ethyl phenol has more of the barnyard, leather, horsey aromas while 4-vinyl phenol is more medicinal, pharmaceutical (possibly plastic to some).

I worked in a winery where we had one lot of contaminated wine (the Brett came in on the grapes). A clove aroma in the wine alerted the winemaker to the possible presence of the yeast so he sent a sample for analysis and sure enough the lab found 4-vinyl phenol and Brett. He said that the clove would evolve to a more medicinal aroma with increased concentration of the 4-vinyl phenol. Thankfully he caught it long before that point.

Lisa

Oliver, Lisa: Thanks! Good stuff. This is more complicated than I thought.

Lisa,

good post, but I think you meant 4-ethyl phenol and 4-ethyl guiacol?

Lisa,

good post, but I think you meant 4-ethyl phenol and 4-ethyl guiacol?

Thanks Oliver. It was actually the 4-vinyl guiacol that we found in the wine. Sorry. I had to go back and take a quick look at my enology textbooks, since I definitely don't recall yeast metabolisms off the top of my head.

Guiacols are related to (one extra -OCH3 group) and associated with the phenols so I probably should not have mentioned one without the other. 4-ethyl guiacol (smokey, spicey) and 4-vinyl guiacol (peppery, carnations) are produced by both saccharomyces and brettanomyces so the guiacols, on their own, are not a sure indication of the presence of brett. (per Traite d'Oenologie: Chimie du vin, 1998)

Lisa

He said that the clove would evolve to a more medicinal aroma with increased concentration of the 4-vinyl phenol. Thankfully he caught it long before that point.

Lisa

Awesome info. What happened to the wine? What was the benefit of catching it early? Trashing the wine?

Nice info here about Brett. As Lisa has stated in her post these micro-organisms that are responsible for creating these aromas we refer to as ‘Brett” can come in on the grapes or they can be lurking about the winery (in a very old barrel or less than clean winemaking procedure) just wanting for the opportunity to do what they do. These resilient little creatures have the ability to remain dormant until their “environment” becomes favorable for them to become “active”. Being an amateur winemaker I have to make a clear distinction between “clean” and “being sanitized” Something can be sanitized but not necessarily clean. This is why I clean (once, twice and then a third time); rinse (once, twice, and then a third time), and then finally sanitize. Sulfite may be used as (or thought of, by no means is this it’s only purpose in winemaking) as a sanitizing agent, but by no means is it a “cleaning” agent. The use of sulfite may keep the “organism at bay” or keep it in its dormant state. But with the passing of time sulfite losses its effectiveness or its level drops to a level that the organism can tolerate and if its “environment” becomes favorable for it to come to life it will do so. So if caught early I guess it’s very possible to keep their activity to a minimum using sulfite (and monitoring pH) and then removing the micro-organism from the wine by filtration and possibly saving the wine. Remember a slight “Brett” aroma(s) (to some people anyway) can add richness and complexity to a wine.

Salute

He said that the clove would evolve to a more medicinal aroma with increased concentration of the 4-vinyl guiacol. Thankfully he caught it long before that point.

Lisa

Awesome info. What happened to the wine? What was the benefit of catching it early? Trashing the wine?

We did some trial blends including the tainted lot, but the bretty aromas were unacceptable to the winemaker (not even noticeable to me) so he sold off the wine in bulk. This was a small winery so it was not possible to blend the lot in a small enough percentage to make the brett contributions "complex".

The benefit of catching it early was that we were able to avoid contaminating other lots of wine by isolating the one tank. We also treated the wine (in this case via flash pasteurization) to get rid of the actual brett at a point where the wine was still saleable on the bulk market. A consultant suggested treating the wine with charcoal, but that would have stripped out more than just the bretty aromas.

[Robin Garr]

It`s called thread hijacking!!!

Bob, jumping in a little late here, "thread hijacking" really isn't very polite, and I'd appreciate it if you (and all) would make a little more effort to avoid that. The problem is this: One of the very few faults with the still-new forum software is that it's not easy to sort out sub-threads in longer discussions, and it kind of messes up a good conversation to have off-topic replies salted in. (Alas, I'm contributing to this by responding to you, but I think it's a sermon that needs to be preached.)

It's so easy to start a new thread asking for NZ Pinot recommendations and discussions ... why bury it as an off-topic reply in an unrelated thread?)