Austrian Traminer/Gew. Question

I was thinking about Gewurztraminer last nite after having a bottle of 2010 Elena Walch Gew. from the Alto Adige that was just so-so, not as typical or flavorful as a few others from northern Italy and Alsace I have had. It dawned on me that I had never had a bottle of Austrian Gewurztraminer. In looking through some old (2008) Parker Advocates, he writes about some Austrian producers of Traminer and one producer of Gewurztraminer (Alois Gross) and I was wondering if these varietal names are used interchangeably or are indeed distinctly different. As a lover of good Gewurztraminer I am always on the look-out for new producers. If I ever bump into an Austrian Gewurztraminer or Traminer I'd like to know what I'm looking at. Can anyone educate me or clarify what Austria is doing with this/these varietals?

[David M. Bueker]

They are different grapes. Traminer is the parent. Gewürztraminer is more expressive. It used to be more prominent in Austria than it is now.

I recalled that they are the same, so I checked and it becomes even more confusing...

First: in Austria it seems that there are 22 permitted white varieties and Gewurtztraminer is not on the list, while Traminer is, but then the entry for Traminer says that the following are all synonyms: Gewürztraminer, Roter Traminer, Gelber Traminer. They are distinguished by the colour of their grapes however all are allowed to be called Gewürztraminer*

Of the 22 white, Traminer is the 14th most planted with just 321 ha, 0.7% of vineyards.

In Jancis's 'Wine Grapes' book Gewurtztraminer doesn't have an entry in the 'G's, and Traminer is not in the 'T's, instead one is directed to Savignan. blanc

Seems that Traminer and Savignan are the same, Savignan Rose is a colour mutation of Savignan Blanc (it has pink grapes) and Gewurtztraminer, which also has pink grapes, is a aromatic version of Savignan Rose.

So, there's not much Traminer/Gewurtztraminer in Austria and when you buy it you may or may not be getting one of the other clones

* http://www.austrianwine.com/our-wine/gr ... -traminer/

[Robin Garr]

In Jancis's 'Wine Grapes' book Gewurtztraminer doesn't have an entry in the 'G's, and Traminer is not in the 'T's,

I love that book! Vines, Grapes and Wines! I still have the 1986 edition on my shelf, purchased in a book shop in Dublin, of all places.

It's oddly organized, though, and you can't count on the alpha section for "major grapes," which are listed separately. Look on p.186 (and the four pages following) for an extended discussion of Gewürztraminer under "Major Varieties;" that article also addresses Traminer and the relationship between them. Both area also listed alphabetically - Gewurz in detail, Traminer more briefly - in her Mitchell Beazley pocket guide.

Seems that Traminer and Savignan are the same, Savignan Rose is a colour mutation of Savignan Blanc (it has pink grapes) and Gewurtztraminer, which also has pink grapes, is a aromatic version of Savignan Rose.

It's even more complicated than that. In Valais/Wallis Switzerland, Savagnin/Traminer is known as Païen or Heida according to one's linguistic preference (French or German).

In Jancis's 'Wine Grapes' book Gewurtztraminer doesn't have an entry in the 'G's, and Traminer is not in the 'T's,

I love that book! Vines, Grapes and Wines! I still have the 1986 edition on my shelf, .

Me too.

The book I was referring to is the 2012 book "Wine Grapes: A Complete Guide to 1,368 Vine Varieties, Including Their Origins and Flavours" - by Jancis Robinson, Julia Harding & Jose Vouillamoz

Seems that Traminer and Savignan are the same, Savignan Rose is a colour mutation of Savignan Blanc (it has pink grapes) and Gewurtztraminer, which also has pink grapes, is a aromatic version of Savignan Rose.

It's even more complicated than that. In Valais/Wallis Switzerland, Savagnin/Traminer is known as Païen or Heida according to one's linguistic preference (French or German).

They're two of the 25 'principal' synonyms listed for Savagnin blanc.

The book lists varieties by the base or original or oldest name* and lists synonyms used in each area, then lists varieties commonly mistaken for them. Those synonyms whose identity has been proved by DNA as identical are marked. Both Païen & Heida have the mark.

Thus Tribidrag is listed with Zinfandel, Primitivo etc shown as synonyms

[Robin Garr]

The book I was referring to is the 2012 book "Wine Grapes: A Complete Guide to 1,368 Vine Varieties, Including Their Origins and Flavours" - by Jancis Robinson, Julia Harding & Jose Vouillamoz

Ahh. I didn't get that one. The $100-plus price put me off, particularly in view of her 1986 book being quite comprehensive. I do notice that "Wine Grapes" is now available on Kindle for $38.

What do you think, Peter? Is "Wine Grapes" worth the lofty toll, particularly in the age of the Internet and with Jancis' older book (and Oxford Companion to Wine) on hand?

[Robin Garr]

PS: It still boggles credulity that Gewurz is not in that cornerstone of a book somewhere!

PS: It still boggles credulity that Gewurz is not in that cornerstone of a book somewhere!

Neither is Zinfandel, or Primitivo, or ChrylenakCastellanski...you gotta look under Tribidrag.
She organizes the grape varieties by their historical name, not the most commonly used or famous, name.
A bit frustrating...but you look first in the index.
Tom

I was thinking about Gewurztraminer last nite after having a bottle of 2010 Elena Walch Gew. from the Alto Adige that was just so-so, not as typical or flavorful as a few others from northern Italy and Alsace I have had. It dawned on me that I had never had a bottle of Austrian Gewurztraminer. In looking through some old (2008) Parker Advocates, he writes about some Austrian producers of Traminer and one producer of Gewurztraminer (Alois Gross) and I was wondering if these varietal names are used interchangeably or are indeed distinctly different. As a lover of good Gewurztraminer I am always on the look-out for new producers. If I ever bump into an Austrian Gewurztraminer or Traminer I'd like to know what I'm looking at. Can anyone educate me or clarify what Austria is doing with this/these varietals?

My sense is that Traminer/GWT is used somewhat interchangeably. I've seen AltoAdige GWT (some of the greatest GWT in the world) and also AA Traminer. I was just in Austria and mostly what I saw was GWT. And it seemed varietally correct. Some were quite nice....but not as powerful as the AA or Alsace ones.
Tom

What do you think, Peter? Is "Wine Grapes" worth the lofty toll, particularly in the age of the Internet and with Jancis' older book (and Oxford Companion to Wine) on hand?

Depends how interested you are in the minutiae of grape identification. It's something that, for reasons I can't explain, does interest me greatly along with rare weired and odd varieties. I loved Vines,Grapes & Wines which was the first consumer oriented .book on grape varieties and which came out shortly after I had become to realise the importance of variety.*

Wine Grapes came out just before my 2012 birthday, so I asked for it as my present.. It is as comprehensive as it could be at that time, but some graoes were missed and another updated edition is on its way, I understand. There's never a week I don't consult it.

Internet -- yup, lots of Wikepedia entries rip if off -- I mean of course, refer to its findings.

* hard to imagine now, but used to be that grape variety wasn't much of a factor, location was all. Bordeaux vs Burgundy differences were due to location not because one was Pinot and the other Cab family. Varieties were barely mentioned.

PS: It still boggles credulity that Gewurz is not in that cornerstone of a book somewhere!

Well, it does have almost 3 whole dense pages to itself (966-968)

Says first reference to Gewurtztraminer was only in 1827 and it suggests the mutation happened in Rheingau