Is a discussion about stems in Pinot Noir too esoteric here

[David M. Bueker]

I am sitting with a glass of 2013 Kutch Sonoma Coast Pinot Noir, and realizing once again that I like what stem inclusion does for Pinot Noir. I crave structure to balance the fruit in new world Pinot, and stems help to bring that to the wines. I also like the floral and slightly green elements that stems impart. It breaks up the endless red fruit parade.

Anybody else?

Edited to make the title clearer after a week.

...realizing once again that I like what stem inclusion does for Pinot Noir. I crave structure to balance the fruit in new world Pinot, and stems help to bring that to the wines.

Do you mean this in opposition to red Burgundy? I.E. you don't need to seek out stems as something that imparts structure when it comes to red Burgundy because there is more likely to be acidic and tannic structure, regardless of stem inclusion?

[Robin Garr]

Ha! I thought you meant "wine glasses."

I think it's a good subject, though. I haven't read on it in years, but I concur in their contribution to structure, used wisely and well. I'm looking forward to more posts, and don't think it's too esoteric at all.

[David M. Bueker]

Rahsaan-I mean that I get plenty of structure in most Red Burgundy, and like finding it in California/other New World Pinot Noir. Too many new world editions are fat and frooty to my taste.

Jamie Goode weighs in on the subject of stems with a nice article-
http://www.wineanorak.com/wholebunch.htm

Salute

Rahsaan-I mean that I get plenty of structure in most Red Burgundy, and like finding it in California/other New World Pinot Noir. Too many new world editions are fat and frooty to my taste.

Makes sense. I don't drink enough New World pinot noir to have much of an opinion.

But I have noticed my own affinity for certain Burgundy producers (Chandon de Briailles) who use stems. Which doesn't make it easy to drink when young!

I thought you meant wine glasses too David . Not into Burgundy or PN so no real opinion......I will get my coat!!

Unless the stems are green, I leave a small portion of the stems in my red wines. With my 2012 Pinot Noir I used about 15% whole bunches and I like it a lot. The only wine I have knowingly had whole bunch fermentation is Beaujolais Nouveau. Thanks for posting the link, Victor - nice article.

[David M. Bueker]

Good to have winemaking input!

Lots of my favorite Burgundy estates/houses use all or a lot whole cluster (Dujac, Chandon de Briailles, Drouhin, Roumier) .
But some of my other faves (Chevillon. Lafarge, Rousseau) use little or no stems.
I like the bright/aromatic influences that I associate with stems overall.

Outside PN, I tend to prefer Syrah with stems, but again not exclusively.

[David M. Bueker]

I am also a fan of stems in Syrah.

I did not know that Roumier was a user of stems.

Roumier is more borderline than others, I think the Bourgogne is always destemmed, village mostly destemmed, and the higher levels vary according to vintage. But I often think I can detect stems in the Amoureuses or Bonnes Mares (or could back when I could afford to taste)

[David M. Bueker]

All I own is Chambolle Village, the Morey 1er Cru and one lonely bottle of Chambolle 1er Cras.

Howie wrote:
With my 2012 Pinot Noir I used about 15% whole bunches and I like it a lot.

Did you place the 15% whole clusters at the bottom, middle, or top of the primary fermentor upon filling it?

Salute

Did you place the 15% whole clusters at the bottom, middle, or top of the primary fermentor upon filling it?

I selected the better looking bunches, placed them in my primary fermentation bin and dumped the ones that went through the crusher/de-stemmer on top. After a few days, the bunches were hovering below the cap.

I didn't look at this discussion until today because I also thought it was about glassware and wasn't that interested in the subject. I like Pinot Noir because it usually ISN'T too tannic, but I doubt if I can really discern when stems are included or excluded.

[David M. Bueker]

It would only take a couple of glasses where you knew the stem status for you to then pick it out. I learned it not long ago.

Thanks Howie! Another couple of questions about your 15% Whole Cluster Niagara Pinot Noir-
What was your starting TA/pH prior to fermentation?
What was your TA/pH after fermentation?

Salute