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Carbonic Maceration Whites ????

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TomHill

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Carbonic Maceration Whites ????

by TomHill » Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:46 pm

Just got in my shipment from Brian at Wines on Piedmont. One of the wines I ordered was:

~ No.11 Minimus WW RogueVlly/WhitOakVnyd (Albarino; CarbonicMaceration; 12.8%; Bttld: 7.11.2014; www.minimuswines.com) Chad & Jessica
Stock/Rickreall/OR 2013
: $26.00 (WoP)

This is the first time I've ever heard of a white wine made w/ CarbonicMaceration. Anybody have any experience with such a beast?? What would be the rational for doing such? Anybody had any of the Minimus wines?? Curious minds and all that.
Their WebSite doesn't have a whole lot of information on it. Under their Philosophy page, one statement did stick out:
To say reduction has no place in wine, that skin fermenting white grapes obliterates varietal character, or that oak is the only quality material for aging wine limits the potential of what wine can be.

That one statement could very well be a direct quote from one of my posts.
Anyway...I'm looking forward to trying the wine.
Tom
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David M. Bueker

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Re: Carbonic Maceration Whites ????

by David M. Bueker » Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:50 pm

Their quote is a straw man. Nothing more. There are plenty of folks open to diverse winemaking techniques for white wines.
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Re: Carbonic Maceration Whites ????

by Fredrik L » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:29 am

I have had a MC Riesling from NZ; definitely one of the weirdest wines I have ever had.

Greetings from Sweden / Fredrik L
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Victorwine

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Re: Carbonic Maceration Whites ????

by Victorwine » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:39 am

Jamie Goode does a good job here discussing Carbonic Maceration

http://www.wineanorak.com/winescience/c ... ration.htm

If it is good for red grapes why not white grapes?

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Re: Carbonic Maceration Whites ????

by Paul Winalski » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:42 am

Good article, but the biochemistry isn't quite right. All sugar metabolism starts with a process called glycolysis, which starts with glucose (other sugars are converted to glucose) and ends by producing two molecules of pyruvic acid, two molecules of water, and two free hydrogen atoms. The energy released by this process is captured by the formation of two molecules of adenosine triphosphate (ATP). This process is anerobic--it does not require oxygen to take place. Just about all cells do glycolysis.

The problem then is what to do about those two free hydrogen atoms and the pyruvate.

The first option is respiration, where the hydrogens atoms are used to reduce molecular oxygen to water, releasing quite a lot of energy that again is captured as ATP. The pyruvate is converted to acetate and CO2. The acetate enters a process called the Krebs cycle where it is converted to two molecules of CO2 and several more pairs of hydrogens, which undergo respiration and generate more energy.

Respiration can only take place where there is molecular oxygen available. In the absence of oxygen, cells use one of several pathways called fermentation. There are two main ones:

In homolactic fermentation, the two hydrogens are used to reduce the pyruvate to lactate. This is the process that takes place in human cells when oxygen levels are low. For example, in strenuous exercise muscle tissue is consuming energy faster than respiration can produce it, so it uses fermentation instead. The lactic acid is carried to the liver where it is rebuilt into glucose. Buildup of lactic acid in muscle tissue is responsible for muscle fatigue.

Ethanol fermentation is a two-step process. First pyruvate is converted to acetaldehyde and CO2, then the acetaldehyde is reduced to ethanol, consuming the spare hydrogens. This is the pathway yeasts use when oxygen isn't available. Releasing ethanol instead of lactic acid avoids acidifying the environment that the yeasts are living in.

Respiration produces far more energy than fermentation does, so cells that are capable of respiration prefer to use it when they can. For example, there is oxygen in bread dough and the yeasts produce only CO2 and water. Yeasts only resort to fermentation when there isn't any oxygen present, as rapidly becomes the case in a wine fermentation vat.

Carbonic maceration forces the cells in grape tissue to use ethanol fermentation rather than respiration for their energy needs. As noted in the article, they can't keep this up for long and soon die.

-Paul W.
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Victorwine

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Re: Carbonic Maceration Whites ????

by Victorwine » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:19 pm

Tom Hill Wrote;
That one statement could very well be a direct quote from one of my posts.

I don’t know Tom, I think that David hit the nail on the head and his response and the “philosophy statement” basically say the same thing. In a much more broader sense, to say that the only way to produce a white wine is the “modern way” (or using a single winemaking technique), all it really does is only “limits what the wine could be”. Using various techniques or a “mixture” of techniques to produce the wine could show what the wine could be in a “different light”. (It might be “undistinguishable” or you might not be “accustomed to it”, but if it taste good and is “interesting” who cares!)

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Re: Carbonic Maceration Whites ????

by Craig Winchell » Sun May 03, 2015 12:11 pm

I know I shouldn't nitpick, but I was less than enthusiastic about an explanation of biochemistry of fermentation found on this thread, so I thought I would offer this instead: http://youtu.be/qusc0gjcRGs . It probably doesn't matter, anyway.
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Re: Carbonic Maceration Whites ????

by Victorwine » Mon May 04, 2015 7:48 pm

If I had the correct mixture and concentration of enzymes for a given volume of must or juice could I get a ‘completed” alcoholic fermentation to take place?

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Re: Carbonic Maceration Whites ????

by Craig Winchell » Mon May 04, 2015 9:41 pm

Victorwine, that is precisely what occurred in the 1896 to lead Buchner to the discovery of enzymes. Addendum- Oh, I didn't read your question properly. Completed? Quite possibly, if everything were in stoichiometric concentrations as well as concentrations typical of yeast populations at maximum density. That would be a viscous soup.
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Re: Carbonic Maceration Whites ????

by Eric Texier » Tue May 05, 2015 5:23 am

Image

This is one of the very best exemples of a white made in carbonic macération!
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Re: Carbonic Maceration Whites ????

by Mark S » Tue May 05, 2015 7:39 am

Eric - where did it say this was carbonic? I only thought it was skin fermented? (Btw, a really nice wine)



Eric Texier wrote:Image

This is one of the very best exemples of a white made in carbonic macération!
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Victorwine

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Re: Carbonic Maceration Whites ????

by Victorwine » Tue May 05, 2015 7:15 pm

Mark wrote:
Eric - where did it say this was carbonic? I only thought it was skin fermented?

Hi Mark,
A “whole berry fermentation” would be the “basic” or most “ancient” “skin fermentation”. (Lots of “skin contact” there).

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