Terroir Best Expressed In Blends???

I've been having an interesting discussion w/ MattRorick/Forlorn-Hope. He has a new wine out, Gemischter Satz, which is modeled on an Austrian wine produced outside Vienna, made from a blend of a large number of varieties, usually old-vine stuff. His Gemischter Satz is a blend of a whopping 31 (mostly German) varieties at Mokelumne Glen vnyd, though not particularly old-vine stuff. I've not tasted it yet, but will tomorrow.

Anyway, Matt sez:

I've had a few interesting conversations with colleagues recently revolving around the idea of terroir being expressed more clearly in blends with a large number of varieties in them -- the idea being that individual varietal character is quieted so that the character of the place comes through first and foremost. I'm curious to hear what you think when you get into it!

We all know (don't we?) that PinotNoir ...errrr ...Nebbiolo ....uhhhh ....Riesling....mmmmm..Mourvedre ...uhhh Zinfandel expresses/reflects terroir better than any other variety. I found Matt's idea rather intriguing as what best expresses terroir. I presume that it applies to reds as well as whites, but Matt & I were talking mostly w.r.t. whites.
That is, the Bedrock Pagani Heritage or the Bedrock Bedrock Heritage is a better expression of those two terroirs than the Carlisle Bedrock or Pagani Zin or the Ridge HookerCreek Zin.

Anyway...it's an interesting concept and I wondered what the collective wisdom of this Board has to say on the idea???

Or...is this whole terroir thing a scam foisted off on us by those wiley Burgundy growers???

Tom (just stirring the pot..but only a little)

One way to look for the evidence of terroir's expression might be to taste wines from different varieties grown in the same vineyard, and pay attention to the similarities, or lack thereof; the caveat, though, is how much of a role the winemaker's approach might play. I worked with five different red grapes from Brandlin Ranch, over the course of 12 years, and it seemed to me that the vineyard character was pretty apparent. I also tasted versions of these same varieties that had been produced by other wineries, and the winemaking overshadowed the personality of all the wines, in almost every case.

One way to look for the evidence of terroir's expression might be to taste wines from different varieties grown in the same vineyard, and pay attention to the similarities, or lack thereof; the caveat, though, is how much of a role the winemaker's approach might play. I worked with five different red grapes from Brandlin Ranch, over the course of 12 years, and it seemed to me that the vineyard character was pretty apparent. I also tasted versions of these same varieties that had been produced by other wineries, and the winemaking overshadowed the personality of all the wines, in almost every case.

Well, Steve...as a winemaker who has focused closely on Brandlin across different varieties, that gives you a unique perspective that most of us mere mortals would never hope to achieve. I certainly believe you and wouldn't accuse you of scamming us.
I think the ContraCosta terroir is pretty identifiable (earthy/plummy/mushroomy/loamy) across Mourv and Zin...but that's probably the best I'm ever going to achieve when it comes to recognizing terroir.
Tom

Marcel Deiss in Alsace is an exponent of blends expressing the terroir of his various sites (some famous Grand Crus included). I haven't tasted enough of his wines to know if this works, but I remember the idea being somewhat controversial when he started focusing on the blends.

[David M. Bueker]

There are a great many factors that influence terroir. As far as Deiss, the grapes are so darned ripe that the wines could be anything from anywhere.

One the subject of the Forlorn Hope wine I have to call bullshit. The effect of the different varieties may be muted, but there is no chance of matching grape to site to actually express the terroir. Tom mentions Riesling, Nebbiolo and of course there is Chardonnay and Pinot Noir. Even Cabernet transmits site. I have not had the Forlorn Hope blend (didn't buy due to other priorities), but I just do not see it.

Great question, and I've been switching from a 'that's ridiculous' to 'they might be on to something' for that answer. I'm settling on 'sometimes' as my answer.

Maybe in some regions it is possible for a blend to best reflect a terroir. Portugal and Bordeaux come to mind, as does Champagne, Tuscany, Rioja and the Southern Rhone (most of the time). But I think most of the time its a single variety that best reflect a terroir. Burgundy of course is the poster child, but the Loire (chenin, sauvignon blanc and cab franc), Northern Rhone (syrah) Germany (riesling), Hunter Valley (semillon or shiraz), Barossa or McLaren Vale (shiraz), and Austria (riesling and gruner) also come to mind.

But maybe its just the fact that some regions are associated with single varieties in the modern era that make us think that way. I suspect that time has meant, especially in the Old World, that the 'best' single variety or blends have been selected, but the reasons for these are often very much a product of chance or economics. For example, the phylloxera outbreak often reset the 'normal grapes found in certain areas (e.g., white wines, not malbec in Cahors i think it was?).

So my final answer is, there is no such thing as 'normal' for any region, so terroir can be reflected best sometimes by blends, sometimes by single varieties. How we answer that question is often mainly based on what are considered 'normal' or 'traditional' products from different regions.

[David M. Bueker]

maybe it's just the fact that some regions are associated with a single variety in the modern area that makes us think that way

Umm...Burgundy had been essentially two grapes that do not get blended together for how many hundreds of years? Germany's best sites dedicated mostly to Riesling since when?

What is this modern era you speak of?

Some are more modern than others! In the Old World, there are long histories, but I think the point I was trying to make was if we associate a 'terroir' with a single variety (or blend), then we will find associate that wine and its specific characteristics with that terroir. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[David M. Bueker]

I sort of agree with the self fulfilling prophecy, except that I have had numerous blind tasting experiences where a specific site was obvious to me. Of course every time it was a single variety wine.

Why on earth somebody would model something on Gemischter Satz beats me; if you are in the region, have it with some snack and drink it well chilled, otherwise forget about it. And, another thing, why do so many winemakers talk so much? Make your wine and let people decide if they like it. Do not drown them in more or less useless info about how field blends make better terroir wines, or how your new sulphur gadgets have made enormous difference for your striving to perfection, or how vintage was late because Easter was... The last one was aimed at you Prue Henschke, do not tell me again how you stick chamomile blossoms in intestines!

Greetings from Sweden / Fredrik L

PS. Can´t they all do it like Egon the IV? Do not say anything, just serve your customers after giving them a stern look. If they should admire them profusely, just give them a very faint smile, if any.

[David M. Bueker]

Well Tom did say he was having a conversation with the winemaker. Are they required to remain stone faced and silent by some "code" you have defined?

As for the general question, there are lots more communication channels out there than there used to be. We all use them. Why should a winemaker refrain from using them?

Yes, my "code", the one they should all follow, is to cut out the crap. "Bilde Künstler, rede nicht", Goethe said and I fully agree.

Greetings from Sweden / Fredrik L

. As far as Deiss, the grapes are so darned ripe that the wines could be anything from anywhere.
.

Great line, so true

I sort of agree with the self fulfilling prophecy, except that I have had numerous blind tasting experiences where a specific site was obvious to me. Of course every time it was a single variety wine.

I agree that specific sites, regions or terroirs can seem obvious (e.g., chablis), but I think we only recognize terroir because we read about it, hear about it and thus it becomes real to us. Only because it has a shared meaning to a group of people does it truly become 'real' in a social/cultural sense. That's my theory!

I've been having an interesting discussion w/ MattRorick/Forlorn-Hope. He has a new wine out, Gemischter Satz, which is modeled on an Austrian wine produced outside Vienna, made from a blend of a large number of varieties, usually old-vine stuff. His Gemischter Satz is a blend of a whopping 31 (mostly German) varieties at Mokelumne Glen vnyd, though not particularly old-vine stuff. I've not tasted it yet, but will tomorrow.

Tom (just stirring the pot..but only a little)

We had the wine last night. It was actually pretty darn good stuff. I was expecting it to be just another shade of gray. Or, in this case, 31 shades of gray. It was pretty exotic and sorta reminded me of a Riesling/Gruner blend. And it had some minerality to it...something you don't often get from Lodi.
It spoke mostly of its Germanic roots..

Albalonga/Arnsberger/Bacchus/
Ehrenfelser/Faber/Forta/Freuhburgunder/GWT/Gruner Veltliner/Gudetal/Huxelrebe/Kanzler/Mario Muscat/
Muller-Thurgau/Noblessa/Optima/Oraniensteiner/Perle/Riesling A49/Riesling GM 110/Riesling GM 198/
Riesling GM 239/Roter Veltliner/Scheurebe/Siegerrebe/Sirius/Silvaner/Traminer/Weissburgunder/and Wurzer

Tom

[David M. Bueker]

It spoke mostly of its Germanic roots

So not so much of the terroir then...

It spoke mostly of its Germanic roots

So not so much of the terroir then...

Beats heck out of me, David. I'm not sure I could recognize the terroir of MokulmneVnyd
or even the terroir of a Lodi white. It's hard to draw any conclusions from just one data point.
Though us LosAlamos types have no qualms about making wild-a$$ extrapolations from one
data point...or even no data points, for that matter!!
Tom

The modern philosophy behind blending is to produce a wine “so that the sum of its parts are better than any individual part”. With wine producers paying much more attention to clones, even your so-called “single variety” wines can be technically called “blends”.

Just by looking at the “ingredient list”, it makes a lot of sense to me that the wine would “speak of its Germanic roots”.

Salute