Premox in Red Wines?

Has anyone read the November 2014 article in Decanter on the threat of "Premox" in red wines?

Basically, the article implies that extremely ripe, low acidity, heavy oak, and oxygenated wines "prematurely oxidize". Just like White Burgundy.

Any thoughts on this? I would agree that big, soft fruity reds don't age very well, but is it correct to blame "premox"? Or is that clickbait? (or page bait?)

[David M. Bueker]

I read it twice to make sure I was not missing anything. Once it was clear they were using 2003 Bordeaux as their poster child I moved on.

I read it twice to make sure I was not missing anything. Once it was clear they were using 2003 Bordeaux as their poster child I moved on.

I find that there was more to the article (and certainly to Dubourdieu's interview in RVF) than that, including research and science. I am easily persuaded that the "modern" style of very ripe fruit, high alcohol and heavy oaking produces unbalanced wine which may age badly. However, the track record is still too short to prove that conclusively, as the authors agree.

[David M. Bueker]

But as we discussed before, if a producer makes a wine without the structure for aging, and it does not age, that is not premox.

But as we discussed before, if a producer makes a wine without the structure for aging, and it does not age, that is not premox.

Yes, it is a bit different and arguably worse.

Premox in whites seems to be random but the sort of premature ageing foreseen by Dubourdieu especially but not exclusively in right-bank "modern" Merlot based Bordeaux is likely to affect all bottles beyond a certain time.

Of course, as I pointed out in Joy's Bordeaux thread, the vast majority of bottles of "great" Bordeaux bought in restaurants are being consumed well before what many of us would consider the optimum period and I suspect that the same may be true in homes. So maybe, if Dubourdieu is right, it is only the minority of us who like to age our claret properly who would suffer, supposing that we are buying those Rollandised monsters in the first place.

[David M. Bueker]

So maybe, if Dubourdieu is right, it is only the minority of us who like to age our claret properly who would suffer, supposing that we are buying those Rollandised monsters in the first place.

And if someone likes to age their claret, and buys Rolladised monsters then they deserve exactly what they get.

I think that what I took away from the article is that wines not made with traditional concepts of ripeness and ageability (i.e., not made to age very well, despite protestations about 16% Argentinian wines tasting "fresh") don't age very well.

To blame this on a somewhat "trendy" (as in...lots of wine media attention) problem with a whole 'nother type of wines seems odd to me.

But, could the same thing be said about White Burgundy? (Over-ripeness, oxygenated fruit, etc.?) Is premox really a "problem" or just the inevitable result of climate change and winemaking choices?

So maybe, if Dubourdieu is right, it is only the minority of us who like to age our claret properly who would suffer, supposing that we are buying those Rollandised monsters in the first place.

And if someone likes to age their claret, and buys Rolladised monsters then they deserve exactly what they get.

Even if we don't buy the Rollandised monsters, we suffer from the reduced pool of estates making in an age-worthy manner. For example, Figeac decided to go down the Rolland route from the 2012 vintage in a bid to win promotion to 1er Grand Cru Classé A next time round. It's not just Parker who is weighing down on the taste of St.Émilion but also the classification arbiters .

[David M. Bueker]

That's a different problem though. Even if the Rolland/Parker style wines were ageable you still would not want to buy them.

Take Pape Clement as an example. Do either of us really care how well it ages, given that it is now a wildly overoaked fruit bomb?

Am I commiting a thought crime if I say I really liked this year past the 1999 Chateau Fontenil (Fronsac), which is one of the Bete M's own estates? It didn't taste anything like Napa!

I think random oxidation is an important problem with red wines under cork. I think I lose as many bottles to oxidation as I do to TCA, albeit more subtly. Lower levels of SO2, cork/glass problems, bad storage, who knows why.

[David M. Bueker]

I think random oxidation is an important problem with red wines under cork. I think I lose as many bottles to oxidation as I do to TCA, albeit more subtly. Lower levels of SO2, cork/glass problems, bad storage, who knows why.

I have never had that happen. What kind of wines do you see it with?

Brian-Fontenil is not a wine where he uses all of his tricks. Try Bon Pasteur sometime.

I think random oxidation is an important problem with red wines under cork. I think I lose as many bottles to oxidation as I do to TCA, albeit more subtly. Lower levels of SO2, cork/glass problems, bad storage, who knows why.

I have never had that happen. What kind of wines do you see it with?

Brian-Fontenil is not a wine where he uses all of his tricks. Try Bon Pasteur sometime.

David,

For my work I have to open a number of bottles of the same wine within, say, a month. When I do that I often find considerable variation in the level of oxidation of the wine, oxidation for me showing as flat Coke, soy or caramel notes. Once I started noticing it a few years ago I noticed it a lot, in the same way one starts to find TCA all over the place once one becomes sensitive to it (apples, potatoes, bananas...). This is not true of all wines, but for me it isn't unusual at all.

[David M. Bueker]

Interesting. The flat Coke and soy notes are something I have always associated with overripe/raisined fruit.

David,

I try not to drink wines picked that way .

Given the variability of cork in terms of oxygen transmission, and given the general tendency for people to use less SO2, I think some 'random oxidation' is inevitable.

Nice Genesis quotation, by the way.

[David M. Bueker]

It would be nice if It was Genesis. It's Emerson, Lake and Palmer. Thanks though!

Interesting. The flat Coke and soy notes are something I have always associated with overripe/raisined fruit.

That's what I was wondering about w/r/t the original article. Is it "oxidation" or just an overwrought, over-ripe wine that failed as quickly as one might expect?

[David M. Bueker]

Between bad corks and bad winemaking we can explain more than a few cases of wines not aging. It's the mystery of Huet and Grand Cru White Burgundy (to name two egregious examples) that is still confounding us.

It would be nice if It was Genesis. It's Emerson, Lake and Palmer. Thanks though!

How embarrassing. I thought it was from the Gabriel era. 'I'm a lawnmower...'

[David M. Bueker]

Karn Evil 9