WTN: The Dismal State of Alsatian Wines....(short/boring)

Tried these three Alsatian wines over the weekend:
1. BottFreres GWT CuveeExceptional AC: Alsace (12%) Ribeauville 1988: Deep golden color w/ no browning; beautiful spicy/cinammon/nutmeg slight smokey/VixVaporRub/wintergreen some quiet/GET/lychee quite perfumed/complex bit herbal/pungent beautiful/Alsace GWT nose; slightly bitter/tangy spicy/cinammon/nutmeg/lychee/GWT gentle/subtle/smooth quite complex/mature GWT flavor; very long slightly bitter spicy/cinammon/nutmeg rather lychee/GWT complex finish; a lovely example of a fully mature Alsatian GWT; a subtle/quiet GWT. $10.40
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2. Dom.Zind-Humbrecht GWT AGC: Hengst/Wintzenheim (MaD; 13.5%) Leonard et Olivier Humbrecht/Wintzenheim 1988: Deep golden color; light hair oil/lychee/GWT/ripe bit grapey slight earthy nose w/ a bit of complexity; soft/lush/fat very light/GWT/lychee very glycerined bit alcoholic/overripe rather simple/grapey slightly bitter flavor; med.short very light lychee/GWT simple/grapey lush/fat/glycerined finish; not nearly the complexity or GWT varietal character of the Bott; still a very alive wine but on the boring side. $22.39
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3. Dom.Zind-humbrecht GWT Reserve (MaD; 13%) LeonardHumbrecht/Wintzenheim 1988: Med.dark gold color; lovely/fragrant strong lychee/GWT/slight hair oil bit spicy/cinammon/nutmeg slight smokey/valve oil rather complex nose; soft quite rich/lush/glycerined some lychee/GWT some spicy/nutmeg/cinammon bit complex/old GWT somewhat fat/soft flavor; very long some lychee/GWT slight hair oil ripe/lush/fat bit cinammon/nutmeg/old GWT bit complex finish; a lovely fully mature GWT & much more interesting than the Hengst but not up to the Bott.
$11.30 (A)
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A another tedious BloodyPulpit:
1. This is a rant I've delivered any number of times over the last 10-15 yrs. It deserves repeating.

I fell in love w/ Alsatian GWT/Riesling back in the early '70's, at the urging of PhilReich & ReneRondeau at LiquorMart in Boulder. The wines were tart/refreshing/good-drinking/cheap and went very well w/ my favorite weiners & kraut dish. Did I mention they were not very expensive?? Names like Trimbach/Hugel/BottFreres/A.Willm were always on my table. The Wilm ClosGaensbroennel '59 that I bought in KansasCity (at an astronomical price of $16/btl) around '70 opened my eyes to the glories of old Alsatian GWT. In the mid-late '70's, my group bought 20-25 cases of the BottFreres GWT & Riesling, both the CuveeExceptional and ReservePersonalle of the '76 vintage. Around '73, we bought some 40 cs of the Dopff "AuMoulin" SchoenebergRiesling and EichbergGWT GrandCrus '71 at a stupid/silly price of about $3.99/btl. Those wines were still alive last time I had one of them some 10 yrs ago or so.

But then things started to change. In the early '80's, Zind-Humbrecht upped the ante in Alsace. They started harvesting later, lower acids, higher alcohols/greater ripeness/higher extract/ often some RS. OliverHumbrecht was annointed the World's "greatest genius" winemaker, and they started getting huge scores out of Monktown. The prices jumped an order of magnitude in those 10 yrs. The wines were dazzling & amazing and left you shaking your head in what Z-H had wrought. Alas, they did not go very well w/ my weenies&kraut anymore. Alas, more & more Alsatian winemakers, noting the success out of Monktown for the Z-H wines, started making wines more&more in that style. Gradually, Alsatian wines started to fade from my dinner table. I haven't bought a case of Alsatian wines for my group in yrs & yrs. The last Alsatian wine that really jazzed me was an older (forget the yr) Trimbach GWT that I probably bought 8-9 btls at ArroyoVino. Anymore, when I want a great GWT loaded w/ lychhee & hair oil. I look, not to Alsace, but to the AltoAdige. Fits w/ my weenies & kraut to a T.

So, last week, I came upon this case of older Alsatian wines from which these three were taken. They illustrate exactly the point I've been trying to make over the yrs. Sadly, traditional Alsatian wines are a thing of the past. Save for a few stalwarts like Trimbach and a few others, Alsatian whites now longer have much of a role on my table.
The BottFreres was exactly what I look for in an older/mature Alsace GWT. It was, by far, the best of the three. The low-end Z-H was actually pretty good, but not in the same league of the Bott. The Z-H GrandCru was nice enough, still holding on well, but just didn't have much interest to me. Dull as dishwater. No weiners & kraut or TarteFlambee for it. It's enough to make a grown man cry. Alas...there are alternatives. Alas...they don't come from Alsace.
End of rant.
Tom

[David M. Bueker]

Boxler. Seek out Boxler.

Boxler. Seek out Boxler.

Awwww, David...no way you could have read my rant that quickly!!!

Actually, Boxler is one I really like & are much more traditional in style. Alas...not here in NM.
Tom

[David M. Bueker]

Boxler. Seek out Boxler.

Awwww, David...no way you could have read my rant that quickly

Well, since I don't have any '88 Alsatians, I skipped the notes and went straight to the pulpit.

Boxler for sure, also many Weinbachs.

Maybe the more apt title would have been "The Dismal State of Alsatian Wines in the US market".

Yes, I agree that the likes of Olivier Humbrecht and his disciples went overboard in Parkerising their wines and I have even had some Z-H and Meyer-Fonné Rieslings which were premoxed. However there are reports that Z-H is trending back towards a leaner and drier style; I can't confirm that because I have bought none since the 2004 vintage. I have a permanent rant about not knowing in advance of opening most Alsace wines how dry or sweet they are going to be , but Z-H does at least try to give guidance though Indice numbers.

That said, I have been able to drink some very good and dry Alsace wines is recent years in Belgium and France from less prominent producers like Albert Mann, Dirler-Cadé, Loew, Paul Ginglinger......and judging by reports in the RVF and their guides there are quite a few others. I did a lucky dip at Leclerc supermarket last week and was very pleased with a Riesling Brand from la Cave de Turckheim; this thread gives me the push to post a TN in the Value thread.

[David M. Bueker]

Albert Mann is widely available in the US market. Great stuff too!

tasted a basic Hugel GWT the other day, was much too sweet and no varietal flavor

Traditional Alsace wines are not "a thing of the past".

True, a bunch followed the Parkerization piper, but not all. Perhaps not even most.

Albert Mann has already been cited. Dirler. Trimbach is about as traditional as they come; haven't noticed any shift there. Weinbach. There are others. You just have to work a little harder, Tom.

I'm as dismayed by the Z-H phenom and its by-blows as you, and I have not purchased a Z-H for many years now. Good to hear they might be moderating their approach. Maybe the trend has passed and we're actually now going back to the more traditional style again?

[David M. Bueker]

I have not seen anything traditional from ZH in the last decade. With the "indice" numbers you can at least get a feel for how sweet the wines are, but they still often clock in at 15% alcohol or more.

Hugel was mentioned in the thread, and frankly I wrote off their entry level wines years ago. The Jubilee series is still quite serviceable though.

We enjoy many of the offerings from Trimbach and Mann. We love Boxler, but can't get it regular 'round these here parts.

[James Roscoe]

We enjoy many of the offerings from Trimbach and Mann. We love Boxler, but can't get it regular 'round these here parts.

Sam, that 2006 CFE Trimbach Riesling we tasted recently was not half bad IIRC.

Haven't had one in years, but I didn't think the 88 ZHs were particularly gloppy. Leonard still had an active hand in late 80s, and while the wines are definitely riper than say Trimbach, they were not like the wines when Oliver had full control in the 90s.
I've recently opened several bottles of the 89 Herrenweg de Turckheim Gew and the Turckheim Riesling, big wines but dry and with structure.

I get tired of reading the anti-Z-H posts, but since this is one of the few forums I still post on, I have to respond. I participate in a yearly Gewurztraminer dinner and have for years. Consistently, ZH is at the top or clearly the top wine of the whole tasting/dinner. (I am a lover of Gewurz so this post will be specific to this grape variety.) Whether medium dry or dessert sweet, the ZHs stand on top. Why? My opinion is they taste wonderful without food and match with the food as well. Concerning the above negative reviews, they are mostly on 20+ year old wines of the 'lesser' style. At best they should be drunk within 10 years, again in my opinion. After a long age, Gewurz' of a less rich type tend to get more dry and bitter, and in less balance. I have found this trend on many producers over many years of tasting/drinking. It is not unique to ZH. When Olivier Humbrecht took over vinification at ZH he moved toward the organic/now biodynamic style. He claims the wines are products of the vintage and the vineyard. He cannot predict what level of richness will be produced from year to year. He believes and lives this. When he heard the complaints about unknown richness/sweetness levels, he came up with his 'Indice Level' on each bottle since 2002(?) Other producers have started to follow the lead. I recently visited a retail shop and they had 3 producers new to me-Ziegler, Zinck and Emile Beyer. The first two have back labels that have a 1-10 sweetness code and both recommend between 3-5 years of aging for these basic level wines. 1988, by the way, was a very good year in Alsace and ZHs wine were among the best, not 'gloppy' or whatever adjective was used in an earlier post. But the last time I drank an 88 was 10 + years ago-when they should have been . Ultimately, I understand taste is subjective and to each his own, but to bemoan 30 year old styles and no one makes the "old style" anymore, I say thank God!

[David M. Bueker]

Ripe fruit is not a flaw...

I get tired of reading the anti-Z-H posts, but since this is one of the few forums I still post on, I have to respond. I participate in a yearly Gewurztraminer dinner and have for years. Consistently, ZH is at the top or clearly the top wine of the whole tasting/dinner. (I am a lover of Gewurz so this post will be specific to this grape variety.) Whether medium dry or dessert sweet, the ZHs stand on top. Why? My opinion is they taste wonderful without food and match with the food as well. Concerning the above negative reviews, they are mostly on 20+ year old wines of the 'lesser' style. At best they should be drunk within 10 years, again in my opinion. After a long age, Gewurz' of a less rich type tend to get more dry and bitter, and in less balance. I have found this trend on many producers over many years of tasting/drinking. It is not unique to ZH. When Olivier Humbrecht took over vinification at ZH he moved toward the organic/now biodynamic style. He claims the wines are products of the vintage and the vineyard. He cannot predict what level of richness will be produced from year to year. He believes and lives this. When he heard the complaints about unknown richness/sweetness levels, he came up with his 'Indice Level' on each bottle since 2002(?) Other producers have started to follow the lead. I recently visited a retail shop and they had 3 producers new to me-Ziegler, Zinck and Emile Beyer. The first two have back labels that have a 1-10 sweetness code and both recommend between 3-5 years of aging for these basic level wines. 1988, by the way, was a very good year in Alsace and ZHs wine were among the best, not 'gloppy' or whatever adjective was used in an earlier post. But the last time I drank an 88 was 10 + years ago-when they should have been . Ultimately, I understand taste is subjective and to each his own, but to bemoan 30 year old styles and no one makes the "old style" anymore, I say thank God!

Harry different strokes for different folks. I haven't tried a ZH Gew in a couple of years but when I did they didn't impress me as being the same style as Boxler, Trimbach, etc. That doesn' make the Boxler better just not the same as ZH.

[David M. Bueker]

There is no better wine for drinking with chicken biryani than ZH Gewürztraminer.

I like ZH and Trimbach, though I tend to prefer ZH's Gewurz to their other varietals.

ZH can be over the top in some years or bottlings, but some recent 2005 ZH Gewurz and Riesling were really excellent.

I get tired of reading the anti-Z-H posts, but since this is one of the few forums I still post on, I have to respond. I participate in a yearly Gewurztraminer dinner and have for years. Consistently, ZH is at the top or clearly the top wine of the whole tasting/dinner. (I am a lover of Gewurz so this post will be specific to this grape variety.) Whether medium dry or dessert sweet, the ZHs stand on top. Why? My opinion is they taste wonderful without food and match with the food as well. Concerning the above negative reviews, they are mostly on 20+ year old wines of the 'lesser' style. At best they should be drunk within 10 years, again in my opinion. After a long age, Gewurz' of a less rich type tend to get more dry and bitter, and in less balance. I have found this trend on many producers over many years of tasting/drinking. It is not unique to ZH. When Olivier Humbrecht took over vinification at ZH he moved toward the organic/now biodynamic style. He claims the wines are products of the vintage and the vineyard. He cannot predict what level of richness will be produced from year to year. He believes and lives this. When he heard the complaints about unknown richness/sweetness levels, he came up with his 'Indice Level' on each bottle since 2002(?) Other producers have started to follow the lead. I recently visited a retail shop and they had 3 producers new to me-Ziegler, Zinck and Emile Beyer. The first two have back labels that have a 1-10 sweetness code and both recommend between 3-5 years of aging for these basic level wines. 1988, by the way, was a very good year in Alsace and ZHs wine were among the best, not 'gloppy' or whatever adjective was used in an earlier post. But the last time I drank an 88 was 10 + years ago-when they should have been . Ultimately, I understand taste is subjective and to each his own, but to bemoan 30 year old styles and no one makes the "old style" anymore, I say thank God!

Not quite sure how you construed my post to be anti-Z-H, Harry.

The wines were dazzling & amazing and left you shaking your head in what Z-H had wrought

And I still believe that statement, Harry. The wines are amazing to taste because of their richness & extract. But sometimes you want a simple/crisp/tasty GWT to go with your tarte flambe and I find that, oftentimes, a dazzling ClosWindsbohl, which will knock your sox off on that first taste, doesn't fill that bill...you don't want to go back for a 2'nd glass because it's not very refreshing & savory. My complaint was really about the dearth of traditional GWT's that I like to drink w/ meals. I won't deny at all that OlivierHumbrecht made Alsatian wines world-class. But sometimes you just want something that's lip-smacking good. Those used to be pretty common from Alsace. Anymore, you gotta search them out.

I was first exposed to aged Alsatian GWT w/ the A.Wilm ClosGaensbroennel '59 in the early '70's (when it was still available at a gawd-awful price of $16) and was blown away by it. I had my last btl when it was 25+ yrs old and it was still amazingly great. I'm a big believer in the character of aged Alsatian GWT. They can be ethereal. The Z-H GWT GrandCrus are amazing to taste young. I'm just skeptical that, w/ their acidity levels and alcohol levels, they can turn into marvelous old bones. We'll see next week when we taste some of the '88 Z-H's, including the 3 wines I tasted above.

Tom

[David M. Bueker]

Tom Hill said: The Z-H GWT GrandCrus are amazing to taste young. I'm just skeptical that, w/ their acidity levels and alcohol levels, they can turn into marvelous old bones. We'll see next week when we taste some of the '88 Z-H's, including the 3 wines I tasted above.

1988 predates essentially all the changes that Olivier made at ZH. Not sure how it helps you evaluate the current state of Alsatian wines or ZH in particular.

A ZH Clos Windsbuhl Pinot Gris some years ago with Mont Stern remains one of the finest white wines I have ever tasted..The Hugel GWT I referred to previously was poured at a recent tasting of Wildman wines..Nothing in that wine said take me home and I was not a buyer

I do enjoy the more dry Z-H wines. I also appreciate that fact that they put the "sweetness index" on their labels. We prefer the wines with sweetness of 3 or less. The problem is that every Z-H wine available locally is coded 4 or 5! The same was true even at a very large wine shop in Chicago that we visited this past summer. Very frustrating.

Jon - The 2001 Z-H Clos Windsbuhl is certainly one of the top couple of Alsatian Pinot Gris I have ever tasted.

Boxler is shockingly expensive, at least in California. $26 for the Edelzwicker, up to $75 or so for the Grand Cru Sommerberg. No thanks.

[David M. Bueker]

Boxler is shockingly expensive, at least in California. $26 for the Edelzwicker, up to $75 or so for the Grand Cru Sommerberg. No thanks.

You can thank Kermit Lynch for that.